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[Winter] Combat Cruisers

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MotorBoatMe WithYourFace
PiiiGGGss iiiNNN SSSpppAAAcccEEE
#481 - 2012-10-10 00:36:02 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
MotorBoatMe WithYourFace wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:

Also don't forget new HAM Caracal is pretty badass with 400 dps @ 25km with 2km/s speed and 24k EHP, also because of GMP changes, with a single rigor (trade for 3k EHP), you can have 79m3 exp radius with your HAMs which should still be deadly to frigates.


Don't rigor's only apply to guided missiles? Are they changing that? Otherwise it will be flare catalysts.


Short Range Missiles
Change the Guided Missile Precision skill, as well as all associated implants and rigs to affect all subcap missiles
Reduce HAM launcher PG requirements by 10%
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155029&find=unread

So yeah, what this implies is that HAMs go from 125 explosion radius to 93 explosion radius with all V skills, and as mentioned, down to 79 with a single rigor or 63.4 with 3 rigors which is almost frigate sized exp radius, although only a 122m/s explosion velocity means you won't be dealing 400 dps to frigs anytime soon but it's probably enough to cause them serious problems.

@Aglais
Don't waste your time with Major Killz, in his world the Rupture is way too slow and doesn't stand a chance against other cruisers and the Moa is a solo pwnmobile. If we listened to Major Killz we'd have Ruptures going as fast as frigates with Maller EHP and Thorax dps Roll


I missed the rig part. That is nice
MotorBoatMe WithYourFace
PiiiGGGss iiiNNN SSSpppAAAcccEEE
#482 - 2012-10-10 00:39:04 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

There is no precision ammo for HAMs. There is Javelin, and Rage. Rage will have a bloated explosion radius, which will probably only put it on par with T1 ammo when shooting anything cruiser sized and down. And Javelin... well it'll actually be worth using, post patch.


I meant Javelin. I think people are going to underestimate the HAM boats.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#483 - 2012-10-10 00:43:17 UTC
Posting again to say medium rails compare just fine to arties and beams. If there's something wrong it's scorch/null/barrage, tracking enhancers, autocannons and heavy missiles.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#484 - 2012-10-10 00:47:07 UTC
MotorBoatMe WithYourFace wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

There is no precision ammo for HAMs. There is Javelin, and Rage. Rage will have a bloated explosion radius, which will probably only put it on par with T1 ammo when shooting anything cruiser sized and down. And Javelin... well it'll actually be worth using, post patch.


I meant Javelin. I think people are going to underestimate the HAM boats.


Again, I can't say anything for how HAMs will end up post patch. They work decently well at current (on Drakes, at least), and a buff is welcome. I'm just not sure as to how they'll work on the Caracal. It's slower than the others, and in my experience, it's a cap hogging whore, so you won't even be able to kite for long in one.

I was looking forward to a "heavy destroyer" Caracal with AMLs, BCU's, and such, but with the new Caldari dessy, it won't be as prevalent in that role because the dessy will likely be cheaper, faster, and more damaging, at the cost of a bit of all of the tank.

HML Caracals... nope.

I dunno, it could turn out well, but I don't like to trust theory crafting. I prefer experience.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#485 - 2012-10-10 00:49:38 UTC
Well medium rails don't see much usage (low dps) and neither do medium beams (ridiculous fitting reqs) while Arty is still popular cause of insane alpha. Short range weapons being able to hit out easily to long point range is probably why medium LR weapons see so little use, you'd need alot support just to make them work outside of point range where they have their advantage.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#486 - 2012-10-10 00:50:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Posting again to say medium rails compare just fine to arties and beams. If there's something wrong it's scorch/null/barrage, tracking enhancers, autocannons and heavy missiles.


I'd disagree with the comparison to arties. Medium arties actually see limited use, unlike the rails and beams.

Of course, I agree that the long range ammo, TE's, and HML's in some ways obsolete them, in addition to the fact that medium sized, long range weaponry in general has taken a downturn in popularity (not that there was much to begin with) due to the introduction of the T3 BC's. Again, HML's aside. But those are getting nerfed.

Edit: Ninja'd by Dato
Yeah, I forgot to list that. That's the other reason medium sized, long range guns are not often used. You only need to be able to hit out to point range, unless you have tackle for you. And if you have tackle that is likely to survive long enough to let you kill them, you might as well use T3 BC's, because they'll finish the job that much faster.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#487 - 2012-10-10 01:14:45 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Well medium rails don't see much usage (low dps) and neither do medium beams (ridiculous fitting reqs) while Arty is still popular cause of insane alpha. Short range weapons being able to hit out easily to long point range is probably why medium LR weapons see so little use, you'd need alot support just to make them work outside of point range where they have their advantage.


Also of note is the fact that fitting requirements on beam lasers is being reduced with no penalties to how they work otherwise. So this means beam lasers will be used, and artillery will be used.

So now the only useless weapon system at the cruiser level is railguns. Which I think are between the new beams and artillery in terms of ease of fitting, for the absolute least possible payoff, unless you count being able to chip paint at 35 kilometers or whatever the hell with antimatter. Gods help ye if thou desire to fit the largest medium railguns, which arguably are the only ones that are capable of doing any kind of decent damage. And then you get a dedicated sniper ship that can't take any hits at all, from my knowledge, but then again long range fighting isn't exactly something I'm familiar with. Because currently all non-winmatard long range weapons are bad, and I strongly dislike flying minmatar despite being a stone's throw from a Vargur, and everything below.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#488 - 2012-10-10 03:23:38 UTC
The only reason medium arties are used it because alpha is a strong trait and scales up really well as once you have enough alpha to one shot ships you greatly reduce the force multiplier that logis provide, it isn't really because of the range. Most engagements happen within range of short range weapons (and generally even arty fleets don't fight from LR) and the combination of better tracking, fitting, less support needed etc makes them just a far better choice for almost any combat situation.

At the BS level I feel it gets worse as BS SR weapons like MPLs are able to hit out to 45-60k which further reduces the need to gimp your fit to gain the range of LR weapons. At the frigate level we see far more use from LR weapons (beams still kinda suck here cause they are just too hard to fit) because except for a select few ships, it is damn near impossible to get good dps on the edge of long point range with SR frigate weapons, thus if you go for a long point kiting setup you'll end up with LR weapons.

I can't really see any easy fix for this as it's more of a combat mechanic than anything.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#489 - 2012-10-10 07:07:49 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
The only reason medium arties are used it because alpha is a strong trait and scales up really well as once you have enough alpha to one shot ships you greatly reduce the force multiplier that logis provide, it isn't really because of the range. Most engagements happen within range of short range weapons (and generally even arty fleets don't fight from LR) and the combination of better tracking, fitting, less support needed etc makes them just a far better choice for almost any combat situation.

At the BS level I feel it gets worse as BS SR weapons like MPLs are able to hit out to 45-60k which further reduces the need to gimp your fit to gain the range of LR weapons. At the frigate level we see far more use from LR weapons (beams still kinda suck here cause they are just too hard to fit) because except for a select few ships, it is damn near impossible to get good dps on the edge of long point range with SR frigate weapons, thus if you go for a long point kiting setup you'll end up with LR weapons.

I can't really see any easy fix for this as it's more of a combat mechanic than anything.


I want to respectfully disagree a bit here.

I use medium arties as my weapon of choice on almost all my nano canes. I prefer the 650s. The reason is range. At 25 to 30km, 650's are out-damaging 425's. And in any case, they work well with how I prefer to fly and fit my ships.

Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#490 - 2012-10-10 08:44:11 UTC
The fact that there hasn't been a response from CCP Fozzie in regards to the feedback in this thread gives me a Sad

I'd really like to hear what CCP Fozzie thinks of:
  • The mass issues with these ships (velocity under propulsion mods)
  • The Moa not havving an optimal range bonus
  • The Moa not having enough mid slots
  • The Maller still being a little lame

    • Please Fozzie. Your responses always give us an erection a Smile
    Dato Koppla
    Balls Deep Inc.
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #491 - 2012-10-12 04:56:15 UTC
    OT Smithers wrote:
    Dato Koppla wrote:
    The only reason medium arties are used it because alpha is a strong trait and scales up really well as once you have enough alpha to one shot ships you greatly reduce the force multiplier that logis provide, it isn't really because of the range. Most engagements happen within range of short range weapons (and generally even arty fleets don't fight from LR) and the combination of better tracking, fitting, less support needed etc makes them just a far better choice for almost any combat situation.

    At the BS level I feel it gets worse as BS SR weapons like MPLs are able to hit out to 45-60k which further reduces the need to gimp your fit to gain the range of LR weapons. At the frigate level we see far more use from LR weapons (beams still kinda suck here cause they are just too hard to fit) because except for a select few ships, it is damn near impossible to get good dps on the edge of long point range with SR frigate weapons, thus if you go for a long point kiting setup you'll end up with LR weapons.

    I can't really see any easy fix for this as it's more of a combat mechanic than anything.


    I want to respectfully disagree a bit here.

    I use medium arties as my weapon of choice on almost all my nano canes. I prefer the 650s. The reason is range. At 25 to 30km, 650's are out-damaging 425's. And in any case, they work well with how I prefer to fly and fit my ships.



    Yeah alpha is still valuable in smaller scale because you can alpha through tanks which is becoming more valuable with ASBs everywhere and also instapop frigates which is useful as they can disengage at will.
    Soon Shin
    Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
    #492 - 2012-10-12 07:52:17 UTC
    The Moa seems rather lame with only 4 midslots.

    The Maller needs drones, why does it not have any drones while the Moa has drones?

    Nothing really has changed in my opinion. The rupture is still king and the Moa and Maller still are rather lame.

    I see little reason of flying a Maller when there is the Harbinger and future buffed Prophecy. The Omen makes a better overall cruiser than the Maller IMO.
    Zhephell
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #493 - 2012-10-12 11:03:52 UTC
    Soon Shin wrote:
    The Omen makes a better overall cruiser than the Maller IMO.


    that's something i can assure you.

    ccp new changes in the maller ll be almost to feign.
    Zarnak Wulf
    Task Force 641
    Empyrean Edict
    #494 - 2012-10-12 13:51:15 UTC
    So are things going to ship as is? Did CCP Fozzie burn himself out? Shocked
    Major Killz
    inglorious bastards.
    #495 - 2012-10-12 14:58:34 UTC
    Once things reach the 15 - 20th of this month I believe everything so far will be LOCKED IN. Kinda how these things tend to play out.

    [u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #496 - 2012-10-12 17:09:11 UTC
    Zarnak Wulf wrote:
    So are things going to ship as is? Did CCP Fozzie burn himself out? Shocked



    He must be busy working on an 'armour tanking 2.0' sticky.
    Reppyk
    The Black Shell
    #497 - 2012-10-12 17:31:51 UTC
    Zarnak Wulf wrote:
    So are things going to ship as is? Did CCP Fozzie burn himself out? Shocked
    He is tackled, top belt.

    I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

    Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
    The VC's
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #498 - 2012-10-12 18:56:57 UTC  |  Edited by: The VC's
    Spugg Galdon wrote:
    The fact that there hasn't been a response from CCP Fozzie in regards to the feedback in this thread gives me a Sad

    I'd really like to hear what CCP Fozzie thinks of:
  • The mass issues with these ships (velocity under propulsion mods)
  • The Moa not havving an optimal range bonus
  • The Moa not having enough mid slots
  • The Maller still being a little lame

    • Please Fozzie. Your responses always give us an erection a Smile


    I originally thought this class of ship would be the simplest to balance, but it really has turned out to be the biggest can of worms of tiericide.


    Edit. Going back to basics. Wouldn't simply giving the Maller and Moa damage bonuses be enough?
    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #499 - 2012-10-12 19:05:52 UTC
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    Zarnak Wulf wrote:
    So are things going to ship as is? Did CCP Fozzie burn himself out? Shocked



    He must be busy working on an 'armour tanking 2.0' sticky.



    Stop teasing me.

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    Yankunytjatjara
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #500 - 2012-10-13 06:48:53 UTC
    Only one word

    QUAD LIGHT BEAM LASERS

    Well ok 4. It's time they receive a buff. They should be the amarr equivalent of RFMLs

    The easiest way, but not only one, is to make them medium pulse lasers, with the tracking buff pulse lasers received years ago, and the relative increase in dps. They would work perfectly with the new maller!

    My solo pvp video: Yankunytjude... That attitude! Solo/small gang proposal: Ship Velocity Vectors