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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#441 - 2012-10-12 07:33:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yeah, cause that'll happen.
Yes, because that's how the system works. It's not something that has to happen — those are the mechanics.

Tippia wrote:
How players choose to employ those mechanics is just the game being played. If player choose to create that “problem” for themselves, then that's their choice. They can also choose not to. The “fix” exists if you want it. If you don't want it, then there's nothing to complain about.

I don't think CCP agrees with you there.

Tippia wrote:
Quote:
don't know how you can honestly stand here and say this isn't a huge deterrent to criminal activity in highsec.
By looking at how easy it is to work around and by looking at the added incentives. Oh, and by the fact that people manage to live under worse circumstances.

You hint a lot at these added incentives. What are they, exactly?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Lunaleil Fournier
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#442 - 2012-10-12 07:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunaleil Fournier
This isn't "bounty hunting" its "kill bonuses."

The whole "Accept Bounty, track down bounty, capture/kill bounty" ala Boba Fett, is missing in this system. Any random kill nets the bounty. That's not the right way to do this.

Disappointed there aren't any skills being introduced so players can really develop their character.
Disappointed you can't accept bounties as missions - which would be tied to skills ;)

For example:
Bounties only pay out if you have the bounty mission accepted when you kill the mark.
Skills would allow you to accept up to X number of active bounty missions.
Skills increase the % of payout based on Isk value destroyed.

That is bounty hunting. Please implement.
Ponder Yonder
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#443 - 2012-10-12 07:37:13 UTC
Great changes!

Just one question tho CCP:When calculating the ISK value of a ship loss, will the platinum insurance value of the ship be subtracted from the total? Please say yes, otherwise I see great scope for insurance abuse.

Actually two questions: will a kill-right be expended when the target is ship-killed or only when pod-killed?
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#444 - 2012-10-12 07:37:46 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

I'm not against an increase in risk for gankers or criminals. I'm against a decrease in risk for miners, mission runners, incursion runners, freighter alts, and the like. That's what this mechanic accomplishes, albeit indirectly.


This bounty and transferable kill rights does absolutely nothing to change risk for anyone. All rules that affect risk remain unchanged. The only risk that you could say is being affected is the risk of an actual consequence. There are no changes here that make it any harder or riskier for gankers or criminals nor easier for missioner or miners. The only thing that changes is that if you are they type of person that likes to shoot at people that typically don't shoot back they now have a way to pay other's to do it for them .

Up until now there has been a very extreme unbalance in the game mechanics. This unbalance is that in high sec criminals and griefers have all the advantages of game mechanics to protect them to hunt freely until such a time as they find a suitable victim and up to this point there is nothing the victimized player could do about it. It was totally onesided. A ganker for example can sit on a gate with 6 of his friends and gank all week long and as long as they only shoot at pilots that can only fly industrial type ships like freighters and barges then there was nothing the industrial toons could do about it.

I understand that you are upset that a mechanic that has given an extremely unbalanced advantage to a playstyle that you like is being brought closer to balance will make things less easy for you. But this is not making life in high sec safer for anyone it's just bringing consequence to actions.

I think this will encourage more actual PvP ( meaning PvP fit ships with guns fighting other PvP fit ships with guns ) to high sec which I think is what everyone wants or at least what most interested parties would like to see.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#445 - 2012-10-12 07:45:27 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I don't think CCP agrees with you there.
How so?

Quote:
You hint a lot at these added incentives. What are they, exactly?
Bounties, most notably. Baiting is another one. Killboard scores and ISK are great motivators… Twisted

I've heard mumblings about a few other ideas people have had, but they'll depend on the exact mechanics so meh…
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#446 - 2012-10-12 08:17:30 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:


This is all perfectly, fine, but it will upset carebears, and CCP will respond. Carebears are naturally quite stupid, and CCP has determined it is their job to protect them.



I'm not realy sure how anyone could say this. The first 9 years of this game have been very anti carebear. The HTFU video just put music to a slogan that CCP had going long before then . I agree that this coming expansion sounds like it will be carebear friendly but I think it is much need to bring balance to the game.

I can agree that carbears need to have risk but so do gankers and criminals and currently they don't.

With the current game mechanic criminal types can roam high sec or gate camp high sec freely with all the benefits of concord protection. Since they plan on loosing their ship to concord anyway they will be in cheap ships that they intend to loose and will be a gank magnet to one one. They can chose to engage or not on their own terms full protected by concord and at no risk to themselves. They can do this repeatedly until they get -5 sec status and then have to go to low or null and belt rat a bit until standings improve. All combat occurs on his terms when he chooses and thanks to the protection of concord.

On the flip side carebears have to fly around in expensive ships typically ( and example would be what hulks cost and how easy they were to gank until the recent barge changes ) and have to fly around paranoid like a schizophrenic 23/7 and risk his expensive: barges, freighters, faction or T2 mission boats etc. As things are now one player with no skills can war dec an incursion corp and not even log in all week but still prevent them from running incursions unless they can get a full corp group because no one will want war deced players in fleet.

I agree this game needs and is intended to have risk. But that goes for everyone. Not to mention that if CCP keeps encouraging pirate type game play because it gets lots of press out of game then soon everyone will be a pirate and there will be no carebars left to shoot at.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#447 - 2012-10-12 08:34:37 UTC
Please, please give us that Forum-Button "Place Bounty" directly by the side of the "Like" Button. If i see some of the Flame-Wars here, i'm sure it will be used pretty regularly :D
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#448 - 2012-10-12 08:39:13 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
Well, nobody said you wanted to discourage PvP in highsec did they? ..oh yeah, that's right, they did. Lol

I find this incredibly amusing. Blink

I don't want to discourage highsec PVP, no.
Which is why I'm against these changes.
They go ahead and break the wardec system, so instead of fixing that they move on and break yet another aspect of highsec PVP.
You're an idiot if you can't see the trend here.


Wow, I didn't know razor was a hi sec corp. With you being all about hi sec, and spending lots of time up there obviously, think there is any way I could get an app to your alliance?

I spend most of my time in hi sec, and be nice to have fellow hi seccers to hang out with and ***** about how CCP keeps playing with the area we pilots fly around in the most.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#449 - 2012-10-12 08:52:46 UTC
Awesome! Sounds like this change will create a lot of fun and tears.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#450 - 2012-10-12 09:12:39 UTC
Will there be a tab or something that shows total bounties collected? I know there is ranking and points and all, but I would like to see total bounty collected and maybe even total tonnage of ships and such. Big smile
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#451 - 2012-10-12 09:14:41 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
All cool people in this thread will get a virtual explosive brofist from me!

How big is the explosion when Tuxford does a Tuxford. He knows what I am talking about. X
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#452 - 2012-10-12 09:30:22 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
They can do this repeatedly until they get -5 sec status and then have to go to low or null and belt rat a bit until standings improve. All combat occurs on his terms when he chooses and thanks to the protection of concord.

No outlaw has the need to go to low when he hits -5, they just choose to do so,
because they are either too afraid or too uninformed to know better.

That said, i understand that most people don't want to play the way i do,
but in the other way round, it's a nerf to criminal activity because
CCP knows that people will back down from being FFA.

On one side it's a nerf against all the cowards,
on the other side nobody seems to think of the noobs.

Noobs are totally discouraged to steal cans to make money,
but instead get pushed into carebear activities.

(i exclude trading, because although it's possible to start trading from 0 and make millions,
it's even more unlikely for a noob to do so than stealing from cans/wrecks he finds floating around)
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#453 - 2012-10-12 09:33:43 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Oh, and BTW, when you suggest my posts are "ill-informed", you might want to examine your own posts.
The kill percentage CCP is suggesting is 20%. 20% of 1 billion is 200 million, not 20 million.

So basically, you are too stupid to do basic math, or you are a hypocrite who did not read the dev blogs.
Take your pick.



*shrug* I made a maths mistake, I put the decimal point in the wrong place.

So I will totally own up as a human being who made a mistake, sorry if that offends.

Still, am looking forward to placing some bounties though Blink

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
pinkdeath Alar
Doomheim
#454 - 2012-10-12 09:44:06 UTC  |  Edited by: pinkdeath Alar
well i will keep open mind and see how it gos sounds fun so far i am a alt what the h#ll do i know lol
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#455 - 2012-10-12 09:56:51 UTC
Not sure if someone mentioned it yet, but killright trading system looks exploitable like hell.

So basically you are pirate or suicide ganker and somebody sells a killright on you. You log in your alt, buy killright and kill yourself in a shuttle or something. If killright clears after it, well it is over.

Any comments?
Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#456 - 2012-10-12 10:15:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Singulis Pacifica
Nyla Skin wrote:


Why would somebody place a bounty on a noob? Roll

Rather pointless to go about crying about things that will never happen. Having a bounty on you doesn't remove concord protection anyway.. so bounty is NOT a griefing mechanic.

I applaud the removal of the restrictions that allowed for basically anybody to avoid having bounty placed on them if they so wanted. Currently you can't for example place a bounty on me, because of my positive secstatus. I'm glad such artificial and pointless restrictions are going away.


If you read my other posts you know that it's not the point of discussion. I don't care how unlikely it is to have a noob acquiring a bounty on top of him. What I care about is the fact that it CAN happen in the proposed plan. A bounty is an incentive to destroy. It doesn't remove protection from CONCORD, but it does mean that someone may or may not decide to destroy your ship if you have a bounty on you.

This should never happen to incursion runners, new players, mission runners, and other people who are putting more attention to PvE than PvP. It gives bounty hunters incentives to destroy. There was an "op-out" method before with the sec status. I understand that this needs to be removed. But something else must be added in return to maintain the option. New players are protected by the GM's in rookie systems: it's not allowed to can flip people and to grief them. Then why do we allow for bounties to be placed on top of their heads, mmm?

So as I said before: players in NPC starter corporations and NPC default corporations should be protected from having bounties on top of their heads. However, they should also be excluded from receiving bounties and acquiring kill rights. It's protection and constriction.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#457 - 2012-10-12 10:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Besides what the guy above me said:


Some random ideas about this bounty system, please correct me where I am wrong.

- All those who have websites, 3rd party utilities, EvE forums guides or just "presence" will basically be often - if not perma-bountied.

Those thinking it's not impossible, just think about John Lennon, there's always somebody out to "make you immortal". Or wants just to make some random "famous" somebody else's live miserable.

Basically it'll become a forum-alt cess-pool even worse than today, people won't be able to express their opinions because somebody will just bounty them to extinction.

While this will affect "bad posters" etc the most, it's easy to imagine how people who just post much (i.e. Tippia) will get completely anonymous and gratuitous bounties spammed every day.
Can't even know who to thank for the harassment.


- I am not expecially wealthy, but I can myself decide to force someone else to quit EvE by permanently having an enticing enough bounty on his head.

This is expecially in response to CCP Punkturis (I still love you!):

CCP Punkturis wrote:
Quote:

So what is to stop someone like goons from placing a 10 billion isk bounty on someone they dislike, which pays out with 50 billion ISK in ship and implant losses, then restarting the bounty again, until the person they have set the bounty on has had their assets completely wiped out?


I don't see how that's different than just ganking him over and over without the bounty?


What's different is that at the moment it's challenging and logistically hard for everyone but the top mega-wealthy to permanently deny the game to somebody else.
Today somebody willing to take revenge:

- Has to have PvP skills, a PvP ship and some PvP competency.
- Or he has to find friends willing to help him (less than immediate), willing to persist "forever" and so on.
- Or he has to find and pay a merc corp, this brings in boureaucracy, response times, merc corp wanting a certain higher payout for profitability, they usually don't have 24/7 coverage...

After the changes he just spams ISK (easier and easier to come by) and somebody WILL take the task, no questions asked. Enough "somebodies" and the bountied guy will not be able to ever undock.
I can even foresee mass "let's all put a bounty on XYZ" forum and / or in game campaigns, easily achieved by larger organizations, the target would never, never get free of being perma-bountied.

It does not even take a lot to neuter somebody, I think I could myself upkeep a 2B permanent bounty on somebody, this would make all sorts of ganks at least break even on any hi sec ship.


- These changes will affect all those flying expensive but fragile ships. As of today scan alts are outside many major stations / mission hubs / mining systems scanning passerbys.

Today they have to have setup a certain organization to proceed ganking the "eligible" targets, they incur in aggression timer lockouts, they can only "process" one gank target at a time and have to devote resources into that.

After the changes, spammable bounties will entice bounty hunters into socially engineered "events" where massive suicide gank streamlining will become possible.
Just look at what happened at Hulkageddon, the prospect of breaking even enticed thousands of wannabe gankers who were manipulated into the event.
After the changes, bounties will make it all automatic, all streamlined, no "paperwork + kill proof" required any more, no time sinks apply. Plus aggression timers will apply to individuals but that individuality has been obsoleted by "distributed attack" tecniques.

This is also tied to the point above: once an entity with some money decides someone or even a whole category has to perma-die even in hi sec till they quit, that someone will achieve that and much more effectively than today.

TLDR: the bar on the ability to perma-deny the game to someone has been suddenly lowered a lot. The potential targets for this attack have been suddenly increased an hundred fold.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#458 - 2012-10-12 10:33:51 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
All cool people in this thread will get a virtual explosive brofist from me!
How big is the explosion when Tuxford does a Tuxford. He knows what I am talking about. X
Servers shut down in fear on 1 minute emergency timers.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
Viscount Hood
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#459 - 2012-10-12 10:38:18 UTC
9 years later it gets looked at....

Actually I quite like it, well done.

sounds like a great way to pay for a war contract
Instead of paying for the war outright you place the payment as a bounty on the corp/alliance.
Then the merc's performance is based on how much they receive in bounties back.

Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#460 - 2012-10-12 10:46:38 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Besides what the guy above me said:


Some random ideas about this bounty system, please correct me where I am wrong.

- All those who have websites, 3rd party utilities, EvE forums guides or just "presence" will basically be often - if not perma-bountied.

Those thinking it's not impossible, just think about John Lennon, there's always somebody out to "make you immortal". Or wants just to make some random "famous" somebody else's live miserable.

Basically it'll become a forum-alt cess-pool even worse than today, people won't be able to express their opinions because somebody will just bounty them to extinction.

While this will affect "bad posters" etc the most, it's easy to imagine how people who just post much (i.e. Tippia) will get completely anonymous and gratuitous bounties spammed every day.
Can't even know who to thank for the harassment.


- I am not expecially wealthy, but I can myself decide to force someone else to quit EvE by permanently having an enticing enough bounty on his head.



I didn't even cover this in my post, but it too is a valid argument. CCP would turn the game into a cess-pit of bounties on all kind of posters and familiar players, developers of tools like EVE-mon etc. People would be forced to create forum alts. Many do so now, but in the future, this is will be the standard form of communication. Because no one is going to post and use their main character anymore. Is this what you plan to achieve CCP? Force people into hiding behind forum alts?