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Getting Rid of the Undesirables (for good this time)

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2012-10-12 00:24:19 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Grumpymunky wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Are you really complaining that after having the upper hand in deciding where and when your high-sec victim will die, you don't like it now that the victim has the upper hand in deciding where and when you die?
Except the ganker already dies.
Every single time.

Nice try. Previously, the ganker got to choose how much they lost. Now the ganker has to look over their shoulder and worry for 30 days about how much isk they lose if they get suddenly ganked.



And the gankee gets to choose how much they lose too. You see how this works?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
stoicfaux
#82 - 2012-10-12 00:28:31 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You're ignoring the fact that this is a massive deterrent against crime in highsec.
Meaning that for people who already play highsec safely, now have it even safer.
Congratulations, we're one step closer to Trammel, all because of you ******** highsec carebears.


The prison system and the death penalty are also deterrents, doesn't stop people committing crime, your actions will now have consequences.

Criminal actions in this game have had consequences ever since CONCORD was introduced. What this is doing is continuing to close the gap. It's a slow elimination of all crime in highsec. We're not joking or exaggerating when we see this eventually leading to not being able to fire weapons on a player at all in highsec unless you're at war with them or otherwise legal targets.

Oh please. You can still gank in high-sec and even place bounties on the "innocent." Gankers merely lose the ability to so precisely control the risks and costs of high-sec ganking.

Besides, I'm pretty sure that the hard core gankers can HTFU and will adapt to the 30 day sudden death window or even use it to their advantage (i.e. travel with friends.) I, for one, am curious as to what folks like Herr Wilkus pull out of their hats.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#83 - 2012-10-12 00:32:36 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

Doesn't matter. We have an official rep from CCP (unpaid but still) basically implying we can't shoot noobs if we're engaged by them in high-sec rookie systems.

So I want to know, legitimately, do we file a petition instead of shooting back or what?


It's interesting you ask; this is a point it that I will raise with my seniors at CCP.

In the meantime, this article states at the bottom :

Evelopedia rookie systems wrote:

Warning: Attempting to trick new players in to situations where you can fire on them freely, such as can flipping them, in these systems is prohibited.


If you've got one of these new Kill Right on you, then I don't know how the GMs will interpret this. I will ask about this and feedback whatever I can.

I'll give you my gut feeling however, just to be absolutely clear *this is not a statement of policy and I may be completely wrong*; If you go to a rookie system and act in a way that looks like you're baiting new players to the GMs, you may get in trouble.

This is why I said not to test the GMs on this point.
The correct action is to ask about this edge-case in the official comments thread.

I hope this helps.

If or when this change occurs and it's not been clarified by then, ask a GM via the petition system. They would rather help you to avoid breaking the rules, rather than punishing you for doing it accidentally.
Likewise, CCL don't wish for anyone to get into trouble, hence my reason for posting that comment in the first place.

Lastly, I just want to re-clarify something here; this change is not live and it's still subject to change in any or all aspects. Don't get bent up in shape about it, use the official thread to make your comments and concerns apparent. I can assure you that someone at CCP will read your comment if it's posted there.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2012-10-12 00:33:10 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Besides, I'm pretty sure that the hard core gankers can HTFU and will adapt

Yes, they will. Most of them will stop ganking. You finally have your risk free highsec.
Happy now? Of course not.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#85 - 2012-10-12 00:33:19 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Oh please. You can still gank in high-sec and even place bounties on the "innocent." Gankers merely lose the ability to so precisely control the risks and costs of high-sec ganking.

Besides, I'm pretty sure that the hard core gankers can HTFU and will adapt to the 30 day sudden death window or even use it to their advantage (i.e. travel with friends.) I, for one, am curious as to what folks like Herr Wilkus pull out of their hats.

They'll adapt to it by buying more accounts and training more destroyer alts. You see, this whole kill right thing doesn't really affect the people who do their job by warping in with 280mm Thrashers from a safespot. It's the regular players this will affect.

Bounties on the innocent will be irrelevant. It will be impossible to collect them without suicide-ganking (why bother?) or wars (completely gutted).

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
stoicfaux
#86 - 2012-10-12 00:43:22 UTC
Oh fer crying out loud.

Get in rookie ship. Shoot your friend/alt in high-sec. You friend/alt now has kill rights on you. Hop in a combat ship. Warp in near a group of carebears with delusions of PvP. Have your friend/alt suddenly make you a suspect. Crush the wannabes. If you survive, warp to safespot and wait out timer. Rinse and repeat.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Smiknight
Smiknight Corporation
#87 - 2012-10-12 00:44:21 UTC
Andski wrote:
I mean let's face it, CCP's vision of hisec is that of a risk-free pseudo-themepark where things like 'thought' are optional. All PvP is restricted to wardecs (which are heavily nerfed), risk-free suspect hunting and RvB. By "hisec should be fairly safe" that means that you should be perfectly safe autopiloting your freighter with 50b of loot or your officer-fit Nightmare through Jita.

They believe that by restricting PvP even more, subscriptions will magically skyrocket and EVE will enter a golden age. We'll see about that (it won't)


Well Nulsec has spoken.

Thus proving my point that you can't make people happy in MMOs, be it Eve or WoW.
A reward devoid of risk is no reward at all, but is instead a handout.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#88 - 2012-10-12 00:46:28 UTC
I'm just going to sit back and laugh when the suspect flag is activated and nobody shoots. Then you'll know all your fears were for nothing as you go on about your business. You might get someone to shoot on a Jita undock, but I doubt it's going to be very effective otherwise.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2012-10-12 00:46:43 UTC
Smiknight wrote:
Andski wrote:
I mean let's face it, CCP's vision of hisec is that of a risk-free pseudo-themepark where things like 'thought' are optional. All PvP is restricted to wardecs (which are heavily nerfed), risk-free suspect hunting and RvB. By "hisec should be fairly safe" that means that you should be perfectly safe autopiloting your freighter with 50b of loot or your officer-fit Nightmare through Jita.

They believe that by restricting PvP even more, subscriptions will magically skyrocket and EVE will enter a golden age. We'll see about that (it won't)


Well Nulsec has spoken.

Thus proving my point that you can't make people happy in MMOs, be it Eve or WoW.


There's always genocide, glad that hit WoW first

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#90 - 2012-10-12 00:46:56 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Oh fer crying out loud.

Get in rookie ship. Shoot your friend/alt in high-sec. You friend/alt now has kill rights on you. Hop in a combat ship. Warp in near a group of carebears with delusions of PvP. Have your friend/alt suddenly make you a suspect. Crush the wannabes. If you survive, warp to safespot and wait out timer. Rinse and repeat.


And I'll be there, along with five friends, to put an 80,000 damage volley on the perp just to prove a point. He'll do it once, twice, and then never again.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2012-10-12 00:53:24 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You're ignoring the fact that this is a massive deterrent against crime in highsec.
Meaning that for people who already play highsec safely, now have it even safer.
Congratulations, we're one step closer to Trammel, all because of you ******** highsec carebears.


The prison system and the death penalty are also deterrents, doesn't stop people committing crime, your actions will now have consequences.

Being CONCORDed when you suicide-gank someone, or being flagged to a whole corporation when you steal someone's can, aren't consequences?

Not to mention that in the real world, crime is profitable. They patched that out a few patches ago, didn't they?

See also: Poverty and desperation. Roll


The only way to profit was to gank miners?? HOW COME NOBODY TOLD ME THAT BEFORE I STARTED PLAYING!@?!?

Roll
Pingu Arareb
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2012-10-12 01:05:13 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Oh please. You can still gank in high-sec and even place bounties on the "innocent." Gankers merely lose the ability to so precisely control the risks and costs of high-sec ganking.

Besides, I'm pretty sure that the hard core gankers can HTFU and will adapt to the 30 day sudden death window or even use it to their advantage (i.e. travel with friends.) I, for one, am curious as to what folks like Herr Wilkus pull out of their hats.

They'll adapt to it by buying more accounts and training more destroyer alts. You see, this whole kill right thing doesn't really affect the people who do their job by warping in with 280mm Thrashers from a safespot. It's the regular players this will affect.

Bounties on the innocent will be irrelevant. It will be impossible to collect them without suicide-ganking (why bother?) or wars (completely gutted).


butthurt hurr durr, face consequences etc
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2012-10-12 01:06:01 UTC
Pingu Arareb wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Oh please. You can still gank in high-sec and even place bounties on the "innocent." Gankers merely lose the ability to so precisely control the risks and costs of high-sec ganking.

Besides, I'm pretty sure that the hard core gankers can HTFU and will adapt to the 30 day sudden death window or even use it to their advantage (i.e. travel with friends.) I, for one, am curious as to what folks like Herr Wilkus pull out of their hats.

They'll adapt to it by buying more accounts and training more destroyer alts. You see, this whole kill right thing doesn't really affect the people who do their job by warping in with 280mm Thrashers from a safespot. It's the regular players this will affect.

Bounties on the innocent will be irrelevant. It will be impossible to collect them without suicide-ganking (why bother?) or wars (completely gutted).


butthurt hurr durr, face consequences etc

What a constructive post. Your concerns are duly noted and discarded.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#94 - 2012-10-12 01:08:51 UTC
We'll see dettails, but for now this looks like a good improvement.
And is more in in line with a sandbox approach, since shift a bit the consequences of actions from game automatism (concord and such) to players decisions.

And yes, high sec have to be a dangerous place for "criminals" as well as low sec have ot be a dangerous palce for honest citizens.

People crying cause "now is impossible to play criminal in high sec" sounds to me the same as people crying "low sec is imposisble as soon as you jump in it you get podded".

Someone in this thread was doing a comparasion with Trammel in UO. But this implementation it's just how was UO system in the cities areas in PRE-trammel UO.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#95 - 2012-10-12 01:10:15 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
And is more in in line with a sandbox approach, since shift a bit the consequences of actions from game automatism (concord and such) to players decisions.

They're not replacing CONCORD with the new kill rights and suspect flag. They're adding them on top of CONCORD.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2012-10-12 01:11:51 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
We'll see dettails, but for now this looks like a good improvement.
And is more in in line with a sandbox approach, since shift a bit the consequences of actions from game automatism (concord and such) to players decisions.

Except CONCORD and such are still there. If we removed CONCORD entirely for this change, then that would be a valid argument. But we're not.

Sura Sadiva wrote:
And yes, high sec have to be a dangerous place for "criminals" as well as low sec have ot be a dangerous palce for honest citizens.

I'm not really arguing against that in particular.

Sura Sadiva wrote:
People crying cause "now is impossible to play criminal in high sec" sounds to me the same as people crying "low sec is imposisble as soon as you jump in it you get podded".

Nobody said it's going to be impossible to play criminal. All we're saying is there's going to be a lot less criminal activity because it's being marginalized and made less worth it. The end result is that you're safer and highsec PVP stagnates.
You can't possibly see that and think that this is a good change.

Sura Sadiva wrote:
Someone in this thread was doing a comparasion with Trammel in UO. But this implementation it's just how was UO system in the cities areas in PRE-trammel UO.

No wonder, then.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2012-10-12 01:14:20 UTC
So uh, people asked for a transferrable killright, so "bountyhunters" could be employed to kill someone for you ... and what we get is a mechanic where someone can pay whatever to activate a killright you've set as "open", and suddenly absolutely everyone in the vicinity can shoot at the guy.

I'm so glad CCP and the CSM are ~great~ at understanding what the **** the players actually mean when they say "we want transferrable killrights so we can be bountyhunters".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#98 - 2012-10-12 01:16:36 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You can't possibly see that and think that this is a good change.

They can, and they do. And CCP listens.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#99 - 2012-10-12 01:21:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrl Tian
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Being CONCORDed when you suicide-gank someone, or being flagged to a whole corporation when you steal someone's can, aren't consequences?


Well yes, but having my entire corp flagged to the guy isn't going to do squat if:

1) I'm the only one in it.

2) It's an NPC corp

3) It's full of people who won't fight.

Clearly it's a design flaw.
Keno Skir
#100 - 2012-10-12 01:23:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
Kinda seems like everyone wanted the miners to HTFU and fit a tank when mechanics didnt favour how they wanted to do things. I say everyone needs to adapt a little in the same way. So you get 30 days of shoulder watching for a gank. Are you going to sit and cry about it or adjust your strategy?

All sounds fun to me, not least the bit where i am suddenly being shot by everyone.

Karrl Tian wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Being CONCORDed when you suicide-gank someone, or being flagged to a whole corporation when you steal someone's can, aren't consequences?


Well yes, but having my entire corp flagged to the guy isn't going to do squat if:

1) I'm the only one in it.

2) It's an NPC corp

3) It's full of carebears.

Clearly it's a design flaw.


It's not a design flaw you dimwit you just picked a crap corp.

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