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Specific Examples of Where Risk Should Be Inserted Successfully Into High-sec

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morons.
#421 - 2012-10-11 18:17:00 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
That is one of the core problems of the game & things will only get worse if more people aren't encouraged out of highsec.


Why? Why can't you accept that people might like to stay in HighSec? There's no need for them to leave and they shouldn't be forced to.


I don't think anyone has problems accepting that people may want to stay in highsec and I didn't see any proposed change in this thread that would 'force' people out of highsec.

Minor adjustments to risk/reward doesn't equal 'forcing' people out of highsec - it just creates direly needed incentives to go out to nullsec.

Concord flying around force-bridging everyone to nullsec would be forcing people into nullsec.

My 2 highest SP characters are currently located in highsec due to general inactivity and lack of interest in current low/nullsec gameplay. I currently don't want to move these characters to null - just the same as you.
However, none of the proposed changes in this thread would make me feel forced to go to nullsec.

Nerf highsec bounties, nerf highsec mining, production and trade... basically everything in highsec should be nerfed - none of that forces anyone to go to null.
I still wouldn't atm - I live in a zero risk area - why would I need to make isk? I don't need to compensate any losses after all.

It's your own greed that makes you feel 'forced' to do anything.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#422 - 2012-10-11 18:22:01 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Kitty Bear wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


Guess what......not EVERYONE in Eve wants to live in 0.0. SURPRISE!

Perfectly fine but their reward should not be equal to mine out in nullsec.




It's not

The highsec miner has no access to
Arknor
Bistot
Crokite
Mercoxit

If the Highsec Miner is part of a playercorp, he has no access to Moon Materials.



But it is, highsec incursion and mission running are very comparable if not better than nullsec ratting in any form. Highsec mining is currently more lucrative than nullsec mining. Exploration is a hobby profession and does not matter. Access to features has nothing to do with reward.

Before one of you pubbies whines about moons consider this:

Reward = Number of moons*value of materials produced - (tower costs + defense costs + diplomatic maintenance + system costs + surround system costs)

Each of those has formula behind them as well but I'm not going to get into that. Those moons are a lot less rewarding than no experience highsec pubbies think they are.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#423 - 2012-10-11 18:25:48 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


Guess what......not EVERYONE in Eve wants to live in 0.0. SURPRISE!

Perfectly fine but their reward should not be equal to mine out in nullsec.




It's not

The highsec miner has no access to
Arknor
Bistot
Crokite
Mercoxit

If the Highsec Miner is part of a playercorp, he has no access to Moon Materials.



But it is, highsec incursion and mission running are very comparable if not better than nullsec ratting in any form. Highsec mining is currently more lucrative than nullsec mining. Exploration is a hobby profession and does not matter. Access to features has nothing to do with reward.

Before one of you pubbies whines about moons consider this:

Reward = Number of moons*value of materials produced - (tower costs + defense costs + diplomatic maintenance + system costs + surround system costs)

Each of those has formula behind them as well but I'm not going to get into that. Those moons are a lot less rewarding than no experience highsec pubbies think they are.

I was willing to stipulate that high-sec rewards were lower just because it makes my point all the more important.

If mining ice in high-sec is such a poor-paying profession (or scordite, or veldspar), why would anybody want to deplete its value any further by removing risk associated with its acquisition?

Your points are equally valid as mine, so my stipulation may have been a lapse in strategy.

Either way one has to wonder why high-sec miners want lower wages today for the same work they put in yesterday. X

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#424 - 2012-10-11 18:27:20 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Theres plenty of risk in hisec

You can be wardecced
You can be ganked
You can get a socket error mid-mission

all working as intended.





edit
cept the last one, i doubt ccp do that deliberately ...


Wardecs are so easily avoided they might as well not exist.
ganking most ships is unprofitabe and not nearly as common as some would have you think.
socket errors are so rare you have a better chance seeing a guardian vexor and its not exactly working as intended...
Robert De'Arneth
#425 - 2012-10-11 18:37:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
Theres plenty of risk in hisec

You can be wardecced
You can be ganked
You can get a socket error mid-mission

all working as intended.





edit
cept the last one, i doubt ccp do that deliberately ...


Wardecs are so easily avoided they might as well not exist.
ganking most ships is unprofitabe and not nearly as common as some would have you think.
socket errors are so rare you have a better chance seeing a guardian vexor and its not exactly working as intended...




Not on topic, but are there any Guardian-Vexxors even left? Last I heard was 2 left, but that seemed like years ago.

I'm a nerd, you can check my stats!! Skilling Int/Mem at 45 sp per minute is how I mack!     I'm like a lapdog, all bark no bite. 
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#426 - 2012-10-11 18:45:34 UTC
Robert De'Arneth wrote:


Not on topic, but are there any Guardian-Vexxors even left? Last I heard was 2 left, but that seemed like years ago.


Theres at least a dosen of them left though no more than 20.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#427 - 2012-10-11 18:47:42 UTC
he missed/ignored the edit comment at bottom re socket errors

and Darth has still not answered my earlier question re hisec mining

why are you so determined to restrict and/or remove an isk-sink ?
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#428 - 2012-10-11 18:49:58 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
he missed/ignored the edit comment at bottom re socket errors

and Darth has still not answered my earlier question re hisec mining

why are you so determined to restrict and/or remove an isk-sink ?

I don't want to remove mining in high-sec.

I want to make successful mining more valuable by adding increased risk.

This does not destroy an ISK sink.

Thank you for your intelligent question.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#429 - 2012-10-11 18:55:32 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
he missed/ignored the edit comment at bottom re socket errors


missed itOops
KillerPriest
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#430 - 2012-10-11 19:07:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
No.

Leave the care bears alone.

Stop trying to FORCE people to play the game how you want.

Stop insulting people simply because they don't like PvP.

Stop thinking PvPing makes you somehow a tough guy.

It wont happen. Let it go. If they're anything like ME, the moment I'm COERCED into doing anything, it makes me that much less likely to do it so yes, this will push people out of the game.

LEAVE. THEM. ALONE.

This is not a PVP game; this is an MMORPG. It is PVP AND PVE.

Flame me all you want, I don't care. I am sick and tired of you GriefBears complaining about CCP not giving you people the ability to harass and grief all day because you can't bother to PvP with other people who WANT to PvP.

And yes...I'm calling your BS. You don't want to PvP. You want to grief people. You want to harass PVE'ers because you're cowards. Go to Low/Null with that stuff and let people play the game how they want.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#431 - 2012-10-11 19:08:07 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
But it is, highsec incursion and mission running are very comparable if not better than nullsec ratting in any form. Highsec mining is currently more lucrative than nullsec mining. Exploration is a hobby profession and does not matter. Access to features has nothing to do with reward.


Where I can make 60M/hr in hisec running level 4s?
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#432 - 2012-10-11 19:10:56 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
KillerPriest wrote:
No.

Leave the care bears alone.

Stop trying to FORCE people to play the game how you want.

Stop insulting people simply because they don't like PvP.

Stop thinking PvPing makes you somehow a tough guy.

It wont happen. Let it go. If they're anything like ME, the moment I'm COERCED into doing anything, it makes me that much less likely to do it so yes, this will push people out of the game.

LEAVE. THEM. ALONE.

This is not a PVP game; this is an MMORPG. It is PVP AND PVE.

Flame me all you want, I don't care. I am sick and tired of you GriefBears complaining about CCP not giving you people the ability to harass and grief all day because you can't bother to PvP with other people who WANT to PvP.

And yes...I'm calling your BS. You don't want to PvP. You want to grief people. You want to harass PVE'ers because you're cowards. Go to Low/Null with that stuff and let people play the game how they want.

I see that you elected to attack my playstyle instead of finding good justification for allowing high-sec mining to continue without valid risk.

You would do high-sec a much bigger favor by at least attempting to make an argument based on facts, rather than an overreaction based solely on opinion.

Why do you want high-sec miners to take a pay cut every day for the rest of their Eve career? Because that's what is guaranteed to happen if no risk is injected, based on the principles of economics.

There is certainly plenty of evidence at this point to demonstrate this. Why won't you make a valid argument, instead of just lashing out at a particular playstyle?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#433 - 2012-10-11 19:12:11 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

I was willing to stipulate that high-sec rewards were lower just because it makes my point all the more important.

If mining ice in high-sec is such a poor-paying profession (or scordite, or veldspar), why would anybody want to deplete its value any further by removing risk associated with its acquisition?

Your points are equally valid as mine, so my stipulation may have been a lapse in strategy.

Either way one has to wonder why high-sec miners want lower wages today for the same work they put in yesterday. X


It's a fine argument to make in favor of increasing risk in highsec. It has merit and can be corroborated. I like to argue that a reduction in reward is merited to avoid power creep.

Highsec miners are strange every one of them howled for the barge buffs, forgetting that if they were the ones who paid attention they would be the ones who made profit. Instead we have the current situation that the once high prices are crashing because anyone can enter their profession and do well in it. Now they get to compete with bot armies as well as other legitimate miners. They shot themselves in the foot is a good analogy that comes to mine. I wonder if CCP will again intervene to save the miners from themselves.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#434 - 2012-10-11 19:15:22 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
KillerPriest wrote:
No.

Leave the care bears alone.

Stop trying to FORCE people to play the game how you want.

Stop insulting people simply because they don't like PvP.

Stop thinking PvPing makes you somehow a tough guy.

It wont happen. Let it go. If they're anything like ME, the moment I'm COERCED into doing anything, it makes me that much less likely to do it so yes, this will push people out of the game.

LEAVE. THEM. ALONE.

This is not a PVP game; this is an MMORPG. It is PVP AND PVE.

Flame me all you want, I don't care. I am sick and tired of you GriefBears complaining about CCP not giving you people the ability to harass and grief all day because you can't bother to PvP with other people who WANT to PvP.

And yes...I'm calling your BS. You don't want to PvP. You want to grief people. You want to harass PVE'ers because you're cowards. Go to Low/Null with that stuff and let people play the game how they want.


This is a PVP game. Your meltdown was very un-amusing and I suggest you study the insightful works of Krixtal Icefluxor. If you want to leave risk alone then reward HAS to be reduced to balance highsec with the rest of the game. No one is trying to force people to play the game differently we want balance.

E: The best idea for all of this is to allow players to control their risk and have their reward be dependent on that. The best example of this is freighting. Player A chooses to maximize their risk by packing their freighter with 50billion isk, they will reap the maximum amount of reward they can from this activity. Player B chooses to minimze their risk by packing their freighter with 2 billion isk, they will reap a much smaller amount of reward than player A does from this activity. In that example players control their risk which allows them to control their proportionate reward. Everything there is in the players hands including the responsibility for their success/failure.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#435 - 2012-10-11 19:16:46 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
This is a PVP game. Your meltdown was very un-amusing and I suggest you study the insightful works of Krixtal Icefluxor. If you want to leave risk alone then reward HAS to be reduced to balance highsec with the rest of the game. No one is trying to force people to play the game differently we want balance.

Krixtal Icefluxor, I seem to recall seeing that name somewhere...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
KillerPriest
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#436 - 2012-10-11 19:19:04 UTC  |  Edited by: KillerPriest
veritas primus wrote:
So you're bored out in 0.0 with nothing to shoot and you think coming here and putting down on High Sec dwellers will solve your problem.

Oh me.

I've played since Castor, Lived in High Sec for a year or so until I got a foundation under me (isk, ships, skills), and then I....I said I decided to take the plunge to 0.0. It wasn't because I was bored in HighSec, or because some doucher was stealing my ore, or someone was popping my miners, it was because I wanted to be something more in game.

Guess what......not EVERYONE in Eve wants to live in 0.0. SURPRISE!

Crazy stuff huh, that someone might want to play the game differently than you?

It's post like this that make people want to stay in high sec, because you sound like an Elitist Doucher.

I lived in 0.0 for several years and hell even had stations named after me, but at some point it got old so I came back to high sec. When I'm ready I'll move back to 0.0.....it will be because once again I made another decision, and it won't be because I was forced.

See how that works?


And what's funny is, the only people you see with that viewpoint are veterans. They're established, they've got ships, skills, millions of SP and a huge ALliance to fund/carry them. Now they want to come to HS and destroy noobs and PVE'ers, it's SO f**king lame and pathetic, because you KNOW these pussies didn't log in on day 1 and go straight to null to live on the wilde side". No sir. These punk asses stayed their asses in highsec just like EVERYONE ELSE until they felt PREPARED/MOTIVATED to go to null, but they they want to call people "carebears" for doing the same s**t they did. Can't stand these MF'ers man seriously, people like this PLAGUE EVERY f**king MMO out there and it is insanely annoying. S**ting on folks for anything from just wanting to PVE to actually having lives outside of the game. (Like this Goonqueer above me).
KillerPriest
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#437 - 2012-10-11 19:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
La Nariz wrote:
KillerPriest wrote:
No.

Leave the care bears alone.

Stop trying to FORCE people to play the game how you want.

Stop insulting people simply because they don't like PvP.

Stop thinking PvPing makes you somehow a tough guy.

It wont happen. Let it go. If they're anything like ME, the moment I'm COERCED into doing anything, it makes me that much less likely to do it so yes, this will push people out of the game.

LEAVE. THEM. ALONE.

This is not a PVP game; this is an MMORPG. It is PVP AND PVE.

Flame me all you want, I don't care. I am sick and tired of you GriefBears complaining about CCP not giving you people the ability to harass and grief all day because you can't bother to PvP with other people who WANT to PvP.

And yes...I'm calling your BS. You don't want to PvP. You want to grief people. You want to harass PVE'ers because you're cowards. Go to Low/Null with that stuff and let people play the game how they want.


This is a PVP game. Your meltdown was very un-amusing and I suggest you study the insightful works of Krixtal Icefluxor. If you want to leave risk alone then reward HAS to be reduced to balance highsec with the rest of the game. No one is trying to force people to play the game differently we want balance.

E: The best idea for all of this is to allow players to control their risk and have their reward be dependent on that. The best example of this is freighting. Player A chooses to maximize their risk by packing their freighter with 50billion isk, they will reap the maximum amount of reward they can from this activity. Player B chooses to minimze their risk by packing their freighter with 2 billion isk, they will reap a much smaller amount of reward than player A does from this activity. In that example players control their risk which allows them to control their proportionate reward. Everything there is in the players hands including the responsibility for their success/failure.



Show me where CCP says this is a PVP ONLY game.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#438 - 2012-10-11 19:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

And it needs to be said no ship in high sec is ungankable. Some have become unprofitable to gank. It does not mean that emergent game play can not find a way to make that ganking profitable again. Red Frog Freight came about because of emergent game play. Gankers can and should form some type of organization with a fee for service. Nothing is stopping that from happening. In fact the circumstances right now rather encourages it. With all the competition for those mining resources.
Yet at the same time in my opninion we still have a shortage of high sec ores on the market. We also have too many ice miners. Those that mine ice for a living would be inclined I think to hiring ganks on those ice bots.

It needs to be said that the Veldnaught also falls under this logic of yours (still theoretically gankable rite?), so by your logic all mining ships EHP could be buffed to equivalency with the Veldnaught - and since it would still be 'technically gankable', this would have no negative repercussions in your mind? They'd still find a way through 'emergent gameplay' to skirt around hardcoded disincentives, and would be the source of the vital 'loss' component that is a critical aspect of the EVE gameplay system, right?

Keep in mind, the last time gankers organized and had some 'emergent gameplay' in mind, CCP buffed the crap out of miners and is now heavily nerfing ganking and even canflipping. So to say there's 'nothing stopping that from happening' is questionable.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#439 - 2012-10-11 19:21:38 UTC
KillerPriest wrote:
veritas primus wrote:
So you're bored out in 0.0 with nothing to shoot and you think coming here and putting down on High Sec dwellers will solve your problem.

Oh me.

I've played since Castor, Lived in High Sec for a year or so until I got a foundation under me (isk, ships, skills), and then I....I said I decided to take the plunge to 0.0. It wasn't because I was bored in HighSec, or because some doucher was stealing my ore, or someone was popping my miners, it was because I wanted to be something more in game.

Guess what......not EVERYONE in Eve wants to live in 0.0. SURPRISE!

Crazy stuff huh, that someone might want to play the game differently than you?

It's post like this that make people want to stay in high sec, because you sound like an Elitist Doucher.

I lived in 0.0 for several years and hell even had stations named after me, but at some point it got old so I came back to high sec. When I'm ready I'll move back to 0.0.....it will be because once again I made another decision, and it won't be because I was forced.

See how that works?


ANd what's funny id, the only people you see with that viewpoint are veterans. They're established, they've got ships, skills, millions of SP and a huge ALliance to fund/carry them. Now they want to come to HS and destroy noobs and PVE'ers, it's SO f**king lame and pathetic, because you KNOW these pussies didn't log in on day 1 and go straight to null to live on the wilde side". No sir. These punk asses stayed their asses in highsec just like EVERYONE ELSE until they felt PREPARED/MOTIVATED to go to null, but they they want to call people "carebears" for doing the same s**t they did. Can't stand these MF'ers man seriously, people like this PLAGUE EVERY f**king MMO out there and it is insanely annoying. S**ting on folks for anything from just wanting to PVE to actually having lives outside of the game.

For those of us for whom this may be true, when our asses were in high-sec there was still legiitmate risk to AFK PVE.

Also, noobs don't pilot Mackinaws.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#440 - 2012-10-11 19:22:05 UTC
KillerPriest wrote:



Show me where CCP says this is a PVP ONLY game.


EVE has always been advertised as a PVP game. Everything involves it.