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Dev blog: Stay on Target!

First post First post
Author
Luiki
my money and my pocket
#241 - 2012-10-10 23:23:31 UTC
i got to say this is the biggest expansion of EVE ever, my wife gonna find out that I am playing a whole different game!

From shooting Square to shooting CIRCLE !!
Kogh Ayon
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#242 - 2012-10-10 23:27:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Kogh Ayon
Well could you please use different colors for shield,armour and structure? There is no confusion at the moment because people will assume the top bar is shied, but you can't assume the shield bar is the one on the left.
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#243 - 2012-10-10 23:27:19 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP karkur
Rengerel en Distel wrote:

I think when people said the target icons are larger, and you dismissed it saying they're not that much larger that it shows the same kind of thing as with the module icon windows. We also complained those were too large, and you didn't think so, and all iteration on the feature has gone silent. Icons and window borders keep getting bigger with each new feature, without any way for the players to adjust it, because you guys know best.

Do you want to know what I did before I said that? I logged into my computer at work (since I'm at home now), opened the screenshot in photoshop. Selected the old target, moved it over the new target.
My observations were the following:
- Yes, the graphics are a bit wider now, but the old one had the module icons on the side so that should also count as the width of the targets.
- the height of the old ones is greater, but then I have to add a little bit to the bottom of the new ones because that's where the active modules appear.

which I summed up as " they aren't really much bigger."

And in case you haven't noticed, we made the tooltips A LOT smaller than they were, and we are in fact iterating on them in this release.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

Nikolai Vodkov
Pro Synergy
#244 - 2012-10-10 23:36:46 UTC
Back to the future?
Most Excellent! I like.

Run level 4 missions?  Increase your income and help new players earn ISK.  Join channel: [b]Pro Synergy Pro Synergy[/b] is looking for dedicated Salvagers.  Want to learn more?  Join channel: Pro Synergy

Rengerel en Distel
#245 - 2012-10-10 23:42:07 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:

I think when people said the target icons are larger, and you dismissed it saying they're not that much larger that it shows the same kind of thing as with the module icon windows. We also complained those were too large, and you didn't think so, and all iteration on the feature has gone silent. Icons and window borders keep getting bigger with each new feature, without any way for the players to adjust it, because you guys know best.

Do you want to know what I did before I said that? I logged into my computer at work (since I'm at home now), opened the screenshot in photoshop. Selected the old target, moved it over the new target.
My observations were the following:
- Yes, the graphics are a bit wider now, but the old one had the module icons on the side so that should also count as the width of the targets.
- the height of the old ones is greater, but then I have to add a little bit to the bottom of the new ones because that's where the active modules appear.

which I summed up as " they aren't really much bigger."

And in case you haven't noticed, we made the tooltips A LOT smaller than they were, and we are in fact iterating on them in this release.

Please don't take it as a personal attack towards you, I mean the developers mindset in general. I code for an online game, and I can be bullheaded in what I want something to look like and how it works as well. I have a problem more with the philosophy of EVE in general which states that the players aren't allowed to change things how they want, besides in very limited ways. It just boggles my mind when games like Everquest allow so much more customization than games that came out years later, and should have known that players will expect to be allowed customization.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Flem'berk
Radio Nowhere
#246 - 2012-10-10 23:42:27 UTC
I like the idea of gathering more information from the UI such as “in targeting range” ect but…..

Issue with the circles:

1) Which is which,
2) Harder to compare the bars: so hard to say which is getting the most reps, and rate of damage taken.
3) Harder to compare two or more ships side beside where as before they where all in nice line that I could glance across
4) Where will the weapons active icons go? Around the circle, or like in the old days and now to side in lines, because that makes them easier to right click and view.
5) What the UI locking graphic?
6) Still have square brackets and overview and all the buttons are square creating a uniform, functioning UI, that also looks good.
7) I presume watch list and drones are still in lines?
8) Make the sections coloured will only work if I can choose the colours, and at that point I would like to choose the old lines back please.

Angeliq
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#247 - 2012-10-10 23:46:55 UTC
WE NEED THE SECONDS!
We need to know how many seconds it takes to lock a target not to see a filling circle. What's wrong with you ppl? EVE is about information, numbers and tactic. Instead of making the UI more intuitive and add useful info to it, you guys are going in the opposite direction. Instead of redesigning/recoloring the weapon icons showing next to the targeting UI (cos most of them are really hard to see against a dark background), you did what? Removed critical information from gameplay and made the targeting UI counter-intuitive. Ofc, ppl will get used to it, just like we did with the new horrible inventory, but it is wrong. Stop wasting time repairing what is not broken.

http://oi45.tinypic.com/fa7ts8.jpg

wow much space very ship such pvp many pew

Kaildoth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#248 - 2012-10-10 23:49:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaildoth
Personally i dont really like flashy stuff with a lot of graphics, animations etc. for the UI.
For the "this ship is hitting you" icon i would prefer a static icon. The first frame (where the regular icon gets some more color) on the little image on the dev blog is what i would like. Also if its possible it would be nice if that icon is off when hes trying to hit but he misses.
The opacity is a nice addition.

About the locked target icon, the new circle hp bars might be a little confusing as to which one is shield etc., maybe you might wanna try adding a little color to the different bars for shield/armor/structure, or maybe add this option to the client settings so everyone can set it to whatever color they like.

Sorry if anything has been said before, didnt have much time to read all the posts.
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#249 - 2012-10-10 23:55:16 UTC
Angeliq wrote:
WE NEED THE SECONDS!
We need to know how many seconds it takes to lock a target not to see a filling circle. What's wrong with you ppl? EVE is about information, numbers and tactic. Instead of making the UI more intuitive and add useful info to it, you guys are going in the opposite direction. Instead of redesigning/recoloring the weapon icons showing next to the targeting UI (cos most of them are really hard to see against a dark background), you did what? Removed critical information from gameplay and made the targeting UI counter-intuitive. Ofc, ppl will get used to it, just like we did with the new horrible inventory, but it is wrong. Stop wasting time repairing what is not broken.

http://oi45.tinypic.com/fa7ts8.jpg

As I said in the blog, this is very much work in progress and we have plenty of time to add one simple counter Smile.
It's def. something we will reconsider since some of you feel so strongly about it, and it might very well make a return Smile

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#250 - 2012-10-10 23:58:41 UTC
My 2 cents:

Nice. I like. just make sure that all the bars have an alternate colour border.

If they're light in colour, a black border. If they're dark, a white one.

This is for use when you're staring into the sun (for example). You don't want the start and end of the bar to be washed out.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Chaos Transcension
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#251 - 2012-10-10 23:59:03 UTC
I love and adore this development, I was JUST saying on my alliance voice chat about the targeting system and how it is needing a serious overhaul. Here are my proposals / suggestions:

Color Coordinating and Coding is DIRE!

Blue for shields and give the option to have it a solid bar or a detailed bar that glows like shields do.
A Rusty Gold for Armor. extra detail could be that is is shiny as it is a full bar but becomes broken and damaged as it degrades.
Hull would be Silver I'd think.

Another idea for them is to keep them a solid color as you have them, but as damage is dealt the bar will pulse very subtly with small hits or give a big visual pulse on big hits.

Scrolling Combat Text: Something that is beyond popular and almost standard in so many games can be easily worked to have that EVE online feel; You keep the same font size, but instead of that little box in the middle (which you can choose to have it or not) you instead have the damage dealt to your target bounce off of that ship in clear text (with options for standard EVE Online font, or two or three other simple fonts to move with a player's personality choice)

The damage you receive will be a small font number bouncing off of your own ship status overlay.

Modules that inflict damage will have their damage dealt to the target also appear coming just off of the module icon.

Shield boosting modules, Nosferatu, shield rep, etc. will also have small bits of text bouncing gently off of those modules.

All damage types will be color-coded, combinations of damages will have their color schemes split on the bouncing text, if you do more Heat (red) than EM (dark blue) then you would have the numbers appear where more of the text is dominated by red OR you could simply keep the text as you desire but put the slightest underlining that is color-coded.

Would also be awesome to know the Shield Boost Per Second, Remote Armor Repair Per Second, Capacitor Transfer Amount Per Second, Nosferatu Drain Per Second, etc. in the ship fitting. But that is an optional semi-unrelated suggestion perhaps for other things you folks are working on.

Thank you for reading my ideas, If you'd like a Gimp2 artist creation of what my ideal overview would look like, I could also submit a file in a week, as I now work quite a lot in demolition. But I am proficient with art programs and I could always whip together some jpeg images of my suggestions in this post.

Alright, time to mine.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#252 - 2012-10-11 00:06:07 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Karl Planck wrote:
Going to repost this as I do not think the devs are looking at the first couple of posts.

I like the idea behind this, as reading things can be difficult. However, can we make it more useful by having the opacity be a reflection as to how well they are hitting us instead of their damage/our HP? For instance: damage inflicted by enemy/maximum possible damage possible? Damage relative to HP isn’t all too helpful because your ship’s health is a very VERY easy stat to keep track of. However, having a visual que to knowing that you are under the guns of your opponent or that you have flown out of somone’s optimal would be VERY helpful (as opposed to having those numbers memorized Oops).


Also, can we get the damage UI on every ship we have locked, not just the one we have selected? This would help out on logis as well as keeping track of primaries.

Last, with this being a really nice UI option, can we disable the stacked bar of ships we have locked? As it is already on our screen :) (would free up that vital screen space)

We want to display who is seriously hurting you and threatening your life... and if I'm shooting at you with my Civilian gun and getting some AMAZING hits in (for me), it wouldn't make much sense that I was flashing bright red, while the guy that is dealing 20x my damage is just blinking faintly because he can do a lot better, would it?
(the current damage messages actually categorize the hits based on the ability of the module)


And I don't really understand.. you say you want the health bars on all the targets, and then you say you want to disable them?


Well, I'm not going to complain as this is something you're adding that wasn't there before, not something you're changing around, however I agree with Karl, that seeing the kind of hit would be much more useful. Maybe you need to stop nubing missions and try pvping as this is where that information will be truly critical, not in PVE. But, like I said, better than nothing.

Unless.... you're planning to remove damage notifications and rely solely on this new mechanism, then you better get ready for a rage storm.

Also, I don't really understand, can't you already see all the HP notifications on all locked targets???

P.S. Great work, I like that you're going back to the round target icons, and I think starting clockwise with shields at 12 is just friggen awesome :)

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

KrakizBad
Section 8.
#253 - 2012-10-11 00:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: KrakizBad
Circular indicators are not an improvement. There seems to be no intuitive progression. And how bad will this lag my client when a 250 man fleet calls me primary?

edit: Also, now we have to just guess how long it will take to target? Ugh
87102-6
Doomheim
#254 - 2012-10-11 00:13:55 UTC
To CCP dev folks --

How do I go about providing you with verbose/detailed constructive feedback about the proposed UI design changes, other than via this thread?

This thread is going to become a massive given what has been proposed, and what I've written so far already spans a couple pages of text so it would be ignored/lost/whatever if I was to post it on a forum. Plus the mark-up here makes it difficult to provide good formatting that's easy to read/follow. (I'm actually surprised this kind of thing isn't being siphoned through the CSMs...)

There are good and bad things about your proposal, but I want to make sure you get a concise/detailed explanation of each part. Your single blog post encapsulates several changes, which is why a lengthy response is needed.

Please let me know either in a reply here or privately. Thank you.
Angeliq
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#255 - 2012-10-11 00:14:28 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Angeliq wrote:
WE NEED THE SECONDS!
We need to know how many seconds it takes to lock a target not to see a filling circle. What's wrong with you ppl? EVE is about information, numbers and tactic. Instead of making the UI more intuitive and add useful info to it, you guys are going in the opposite direction. Instead of redesigning/recoloring the weapon icons showing next to the targeting UI (cos most of them are really hard to see against a dark background), you did what? Removed critical information from gameplay and made the targeting UI counter-intuitive. Ofc, ppl will get used to it, just like we did with the new horrible inventory, but it is wrong. Stop wasting time repairing what is not broken.

http://oi45.tinypic.com/fa7ts8.jpg

As I said in the blog, this is very much work in progress and we have plenty of time to add one simple counter Smile.
It's def. something we will reconsider since some of you feel so strongly about it, and it might very well make a return Smile


I hope so.
Now on a more positive note, there is one thing I like: the "in targeting range" bracket. That is useful! It would also be nice if the tactical overlay gets some love, maybe some more transparent spheres every 50 km when you max zoom out and maybe tactical information like speed and transversal like those shown in overview, but right next to the ship brackets when in space, so we could see more easily this information, at a glance and not search the entire overview for it (cos most of the time you have a lot of ppl in overview). This info could be shown only when you open the tactical overlay or even better, make it customizable. We like options and customization.

wow much space very ship such pvp many pew

CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#256 - 2012-10-11 00:15:09 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:

Well, I'm not going to complain as this is something you're adding that wasn't there before, not something you're changing around, however I agree with Karl, that seeing the kind of hit would be much more useful. Maybe you need to stop nubing missions and try pvping as this is where that information will be truly critical, not in PVE. But, like I said, better than nothing.

Unless.... you're planning to remove damage notifications and rely solely on this new mechanism, then you better get ready for a rage storm.

Also, I don't really understand, can't you already see all the HP notifications on all locked targets???

P.S. Great work, I like that you're going back to the round target icons, and I think starting clockwise with shields at 12 is just friggen awesome :)

I'm actually doing more PVP now than PVE... but I'm such a noob that I usually just die when people start shooting P

But we are not planning on removing the damage notification... we will (most likely) be improving them, I'm not really sure though how (I just don't know right now).

And thank you Big smile

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

Olodn
Infinite Duress
#257 - 2012-10-11 00:15:55 UTC
I think less is more.

A half circle consisting of shields, armor and structure from left to right would be more intuitive.
Oberine Noriepa
#258 - 2012-10-11 00:16:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Oberine Noriepa
Evelgrivion wrote:
I don't like the circle indicators; the current ordered list of Shield Armor Hull is very good at conveying at a glance information; the rounded bars condenses it, but at the cost of at a glance clarity; not a worthy tradeoff, IMO.

I do like the idea of conveying targeting range and providing a visual indicator on the HUD of who is hitting you. Overall, I think the ol' box is the best way to go, rather than circles.

I think this could be fixed by making each gauge a specific color. Shields: Blue / Armor: Green / Structure: White [Red should be the background color for each gauge.]

Bienator II wrote:
please make sure that you can find the selected item on the edge of the screen easier. Right now if you select something on the overview and are under bad light or system backgground conditions. you have to rotate the cam and search quite a bit till you see it on screeen. This makes dscanning even more anoying as it already is in some systems. The new circle instead of the rect will help somewhat, maybe make it blink once or twice after selecting it to help out a bit.

Yes! Please fix this. Many of the HUD brackets can easily become obscured. Maybe a good time to update them? A slide from Fanfest showed off some interesting looking brackets.

I know that a lot of stuff is in research and development, but is picture-in-picture still an element that you guys are interested in implementing within the HUD? I really like how a lot of HUD elements in that slide I linked look. The ship readout and modules look very sleek. That overview design could definitely use some work, but I think it would be nice if the overview appeared a lot sleeker without reducing its effectiveness.

EDIT: Also, I think it would be great if we got rid of the cross lines that span across the entire screen when you lock onto a target.

GeeShizzle MacCloud
#259 - 2012-10-11 00:17:50 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
some constructive criticism for u devs btw... :)

http://i.imgur.com/e11vC.jpg

and yes i did put one of the arrows in the wrong place but you know where it should have been pointing!
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#260 - 2012-10-11 00:19:55 UTC
All right boys and girls... it's late and this girl needs to get some sleep after a long dayP.
Please keep posting your feedback, but please don't get upset that we have gone quiet... we just need to get some sleep so we can get some stuff done tomorrow! Big smile

Have a good night all, and thank you for your input! Big smile

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur