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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#4441 - 2012-10-08 23:11:42 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:


If something "right now eclipses" its pendant, then you say it needs change? I wonder how you justify there is no nerf for Projectiles as a total then, and Zealots, and most Winmatar ships ... seriously, there cant be perfect balance in a game like Eve as long as you dont give everyone the same. But if a system/ship combo is good in some things and not good in others, and others are vice versa for ME (and many others) this is balance.

You will see no more missile hulls of Caldari in top 20 eve kill net after this change. But you will still see all those Amarr and esp. Winmatar ships there ... if you feel that is good, fine for you. I dont, and I can use them all too. But I dont like unbalanced games ....


the fact that u have to mention the zealot and an entire RACE of ships suggest that there is lots to chose from. And gallente get plenty of use, especially in hi-sec. the fact is, there is a big spread of ships and all sizes of caldari ships are seen frequently (save destroyer, ill give u that).

There is no single ship that eclipses all else (except the falcon is a ridiculous force multiplier), but there is a single long range medium weapon that renders all others impotent...

right now, medium rails and beams and arties have NO role and cannot compete (ok, medium arties do have a role) so it makes sense to reduce the overpowered abilities of the heavies so that medium turrets get a look in.

projectiles do not eclipse all else. they are good for pvp because u can swap damage types (and ppl would use missiles too if any other race than the caldari had ships that used them). But even with this advantage, u see a substantial amount of blaster boats, HAM ships and pulse laser boats in hi sec wars because close range fights are nicely balanced. (granted HAM's needed some love, but thankfully they were usually attached to a 100k ehp drake)


Noemi Nagano wrote:


Another posting here quoted for truth. Exactly thats the point. Caldari are screwed over and over again, they are no longer top of PvE for a while (since projectile buff/Pirate BS buff), their only tech 1 med+ sized missile PvP hull (Drake) will get screwed too - go on like that CCP and you have soon less trouble with server load :)


yes, the sooner u leave the better. that way the caldari pilots that are left are the ones that know how and when to use them.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#4442 - 2012-10-08 23:18:14 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:


...I trained Torp spec 5 some time ago and still didnt find them useful in PvP at all..



can u post KM's or loss mails for this toon? or are u just pretending to have done pvp?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4443 - 2012-10-09 04:13:10 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
What am I missing? The Rohk spent damn near the entire fight perma jammed with ECM drones and it still managed to kil lthe raven that was hammering it non-stop for five minutes.


- Ion Blaster Cannon IIs, not 425mm Railgun IIs
- Rokh's bonuses: "Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% large hybrid optimal range per level and 5% shield resistance per level"
- X-Large Shield Booster II

Rokh has clear tanking advantage.
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4444 - 2012-10-09 06:20:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Keko Khaan
Noemi Nagano wrote:
[quote=OT Smithers]

I think it did as poor as I knew it would do, I trained Torp spec 5 some time ago and still didnt find them useful in PvP at all. If you feel like Torps and Ravens had a role, then you could find 3 other weapon systems doing the same but just better. And the Raven hull is so broken its a real shame. Whats the description again? Something like "The workhorse of Caldari Navy ..." yeah right. My ass ...


I learned T2 cruise missiles few years back and havent used them since. Not either in PVP nor PVE. Whole ship and both its weapon systems are just useless. Cant even use them on naga (not that i would even want to lol). T2 large projectiles on other hand are very usefull in both PVP and PVE. Just for example Machs, Maels, Phoons nados etc all work with both long or short range and either in PVP or PVE.. Just saying...

And no im not going to spend another month to learn another useless large missile system. Even they would be nice with bomber. Id rather learn amarr BS and large lasors...
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#4445 - 2012-10-09 06:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: OT Smithers
nt
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4446 - 2012-10-09 06:40:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Keko Khaan
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:


...I trained Torp spec 5 some time ago and still didnt find them useful in PvP at all..



can u post KM's or loss mails for this toon? or are u just pretending to have done pvp?


Eh maybe he uses alt to post here? Anyways your PVP records aint too "experienced" with that toon either.. You have 33 kills and 14 losses.. Big smile

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Daichi+Yamato#kills

And yes im alt too. But it wasnt me who brought PVP records up in here first place Shocked
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4447 - 2012-10-09 07:02:31 UTC
Gorn Arming wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I guess its good at shooting stationary objects which aren't shooting back Roll


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8aX60biCE4#t=6m04s

It's just a duel but it shows that Raven isn't as bad as some people make it look like.


What am I missing? The Rohk spent damn near the entire fight perma jammed with ECM drones and it still managed to kil lthe raven that was hammering it non-stop for five minutes.

Yeah, I'm not seeing why this would make me want to fly a Raven. If you can't win with that many consecutive jams, you might be flying a terrible ship.


I'm late to reply (video wouldnt play on mobile, "author has not made it available to mobile devices"?).


Yeah, the biggest shock for me there was the ECM drone effectiveness tbh.

Caldari do have some decent hulls (though much of their higher worth stuff flies under the ECM banner), it's far from all doom & gloom but the raven I just cannot take seriously in a list of "viable" PvP hulls).
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4448 - 2012-10-09 08:53:20 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:


There is no single ship that eclipses all else (except the falcon is a ridiculous force multiplier), but there is a single long range medium weapon that renders all others impotent...


Err .. no. This medium weapon is stronger than its counter parts in a range from 35-70 km. It *still* has delayed damage there, it still has its good numbers only with one damage type (and not a MIX!), so if it would be so OP, we would see 1) much more Drakes in low and high, and 2) much more kin hardeners and 3) much more ships actually using it.

Daichi Yamato wrote:

projectiles do not eclipse all else.


Of course they do. No cap use, good tracking, huge falloff (which can be boosted by TEs too) and selectable damage type. They are the weapon of choice for nearly everything, and now comes the best part - they are normally fitted on ships with the best speed .... where we come to part 2:

Daichi Yamato wrote:

they are good for pvp because u can swap damage types (and ppl would use missiles too if any other race than the caldari had ships that used them). But even with this advantage, u see a substantial amount of blaster boats, HAM ships and pulse laser boats in hi sec wars because close range fights are nicely balanced.


The point is, ships AND weapons together are what is going on in this game. Although speed is most probably the most important thing of all (lets you decide if you engage or not, and so on ..), all those other attributes count a lot too.


Daichi Yamato wrote:

(granted HAM's needed some love, but thankfully they were usually attached to a 100k ehp drake)


And you know why? Because no other Caldari ship can really fit those, NHs PG is too small, Caracal and other Cruiser hulls are just not on par, and HAMs are so bad in comparison to their gunnery pendants its not even worth it to fit them on a Drake most of the time (even if that ship has nice numbers in EHP and DPS, it sill will not win vs its peers. Power of those other attributes, you know?).

And other races better use another weaponsystem than HAMs, because they have better choices left. That, and only that, is the reason why Drakes use HML normally. If they want to be competitive they *have* to stay a bit out, and *have* to use a weapon system which allows them to do so. And yes, this system is good in what it does. But so are large ACs, large Pulses, large Arties, med ACs, med Pulses ... even large Rails :)

Daichi Yamato wrote:


yes, the sooner u leave the better. that way the caldari pilots that are left are the ones that know how and when to use them.


Oh, I know how to use them. And I know how to crosstrain. I have every ship below cap which is used for combat on 5 shipskill except BOs.. and all weapon system which are used there on spec 4 or spec 5 too. :) but I dont consider this fun - I want to have the chance to really *use* a thing, and still be competitive. Ofc one has to look for roles. But just ECM/Logi/fleet sniper with Nagas/Rokhs is not enough for me as Caldari. And its so poor in comparison to what others can do. :)
xinthorminaias
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4449 - 2012-10-09 09:27:43 UTC
One of the really sad (and maybe funny) things about this is the majority of people affected will be solo players using Drakes for Level 4's and possibly wormholes. The first many will know of it will be when they find they lose their ship and can no longer do the missions they were doing.
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4450 - 2012-10-09 09:58:21 UTC
xinthorminaias wrote:
One of the really sad (and maybe funny) things about this is the majority of people affected will be solo players using Drakes for Level 4's and possibly wormholes. The first many will know of it will be when they find they lose their ship and can no longer do the missions they were doing.


Also solo players using tengus in LVL4's, Null and WH.. But no worries solution is here.. just sell your drakes and tengus and buy vargurs, machs and maels...
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4451 - 2012-10-09 11:17:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Ofc one has to look for roles. But just ECM/Logi/fleet sniper with Nagas/Rokhs is not enough for me as Caldari. And its so poor in comparison to what others can do. :)


What others can do?

For example Amarr has this "very limited roles" thingy going on in case you haven't noticed.

When you say other races have solid T1 cruiser/BC line up...

Can you name two good T1 cruisers from Amarr?
I can help you with first: Arbitrator.
No need to hurry. I know this is difficult question.
Bonus points if you name three or four good T1 Amarr cruisers.
Galmas
United System's Commonwealth
#4452 - 2012-10-09 11:20:22 UTC
Unfortunately i will soon wake up again.... Sad
Kara Vix
Perkone
Caldari State
#4453 - 2012-10-09 11:43:09 UTC
Keko Khaan wrote:
xinthorminaias wrote:
One of the really sad (and maybe funny) things about this is the majority of people affected will be solo players using Drakes for Level 4's and possibly wormholes. The first many will know of it will be when they find they lose their ship and can no longer do the missions they were doing.


Also solo players using tengus in LVL4's, Null and WH.. But no worries solution is here.. just sell your drakes and tengus and buy vargurs, machs and maels...


And those of us who love our Nighthawks, albiet they were always underpowered, and spent a heck of alot of skillpoints to get command ship 5. Now we are going to be stuck with an even worse ship that cost alot of training time. This is just nonsense, fix the launchers and ships on test and then bring the changes to live server at the same time.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#4454 - 2012-10-09 12:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Keko Khaan wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:


...I trained Torp spec 5 some time ago and still didnt find them useful in PvP at all..



can u post KM's or loss mails for this toon? or are u just pretending to have done pvp?


Eh maybe he uses alt to post here? Anyways your PVP records aint too "experienced" with that toon either.. You have 33 kills and 14 losses.. Big smile

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Daichi+Yamato#kills

And yes im alt too. But it wasnt me who brought PVP records up in here first place Shocked


I gathered it was an alt. which is why im asking him to put up something from the toon he's referring to.
Posting with his alt is something else that takes away from his credibility (urs too). he doesnt sound like someone who knows much about pvp, and he hasnt anything to support his claims with

I post with my main but i have alts too, that i also pvp with
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Luhya+Saho

i dnt get to pew alot, nor am i the next Garmon, but i do pvp at least
i'm not here asking which of has the biggest PVP ****, im simply asking, does he pew at all? cause so far it doesn't look like it

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4455 - 2012-10-09 13:48:50 UTC
If you have any credibility for judging missile performance first hand? Yours and your alts KB show you fly mostly Winmatar ...

Anyway, facts are all on the table, so everyone can get his picture.

You and others who share your PoV say Caldari Missile PvP in form of Drake/HML is so OP its gamebreaking and needs to be fixed.

Me and others claimed the changes will render Caldari Missile PvP useless above frig size, which it already *is* ATM with the exception of Drake/HML (Tengu/HML for the rich guys ..). Those 2 ships are not breaking the game IMO, they are just good in a role, and this role seems to be too unimportant in 2 out of 3 Eve-Universe parts (low and highsec), so Drakes are not the most used PvP ship there. They are, agreed, overused in nullsec. Which could be changed by other means than nerfing HML. And maybe the counter has already been found. Nerf Zealots!! /sarcasm
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4456 - 2012-10-09 13:52:24 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Those 2 ships are not breaking the game IMO, they are just good in a role


AC Cane vs. HML Drake

Who wins?

Oh, I'm still waiting list of good T1 Amarr cruisers. Big smile
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#4457 - 2012-10-09 14:43:22 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
If you have any credibility for judging missile performance first hand? Yours and your alts KB show you fly mostly Winmatar ...

Anyway, facts are all on the table, so everyone can get his picture.

You and others who share your PoV say Caldari Missile PvP in form of Drake/HML is so OP its gamebreaking and needs to be fixed.

Me and others claimed the changes will render Caldari Missile PvP useless above frig size, which it already *is* ATM with the exception of Drake/HML (Tengu/HML for the rich guys ..). Those 2 ships are not breaking the game IMO, they are just good in a role, and this role seems to be too unimportant in 2 out of 3 Eve-Universe parts (low and highsec), so Drakes are not the most used PvP ship there. They are, agreed, overused in nullsec. Which could be changed by other means than nerfing HML. And maybe the counter has already been found. Nerf Zealots!! /sarcasm



dai is more gal, and luh was born minnie so that makes sense yeah. but i have flown all races.
whilst u try to take that moral high ground, are u even going to show anyone that u've flown anything but caldari?

when u see everyone destroying ur ship it MUST be beause the race u've chosen is poor, it couldnt at all be the fact that u just have no idea what ur doing...

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Signal11th
#4458 - 2012-10-09 15:00:20 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
[quote=Noemi Nagano]If you have any credibility for judging missile performance first hand? Yours and your alts KB show you fly mostly Winmatar ...

when u see everyone destroying ur ship it MUST be beause the race u've chosen is poor, it couldnt at all be the fact that u just have no idea what ur doing...



Or it could just be the ship he is flying is actually shite???

Think to yourself when you're going out either solo or small gang pvp how far down the list is the drake??

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#4459 - 2012-10-09 15:19:05 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
[quote=Noemi Nagano]If you have any credibility for judging missile performance first hand? Yours and your alts KB show you fly mostly Winmatar ...

when u see everyone destroying ur ship it MUST be beause the race u've chosen is poor, it couldnt at all be the fact that u just have no idea what ur doing...



Or it could just be the ship he is flying is actually shite???

Think to yourself when you're going out either solo or small gang pvp how far down the list is the drake??


Small gang pvp sees a fair few drakes. both kill boards that have been posted for my toons involve several drakes.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Signal11th
#4460 - 2012-10-09 15:20:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
[quote=Noemi Nagano]If you have any credibility for judging missile performance first hand? Yours and your alts KB show you fly mostly Winmatar ...

when u see everyone destroying ur ship it MUST be beause the race u've chosen is poor, it couldnt at all be the fact that u just have no idea what ur doing...



Or it could just be the ship he is flying is actually shite???

Think to yourself when you're going out either solo or small gang pvp how far down the list is the drake??


Small gang pvp sees a fair few drakes. both kill boards that have been posted for my toons involve several drakes.



Yes but its not the first choice is it...even further down now the Tier 3 BC's are out.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!