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[Debate] - ISK SINK

Author
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-10-09 13:25:20 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:


Honestly, the mission payout in isk is nothing. No one, and I do mean NO ONE does missions for the mission payout. So converting it into lp is almost meaningless.

Now, a neural remap that can be perform say.... once every 3 months and is 500 mil would be a massive isk dump that would be used quite often by anyone who could afford it....
This would not only create an isk dump but would also reduce market costs for items because players would buy that remap over that ship, meaning more goodies for sale and reduced prices.
It's pretty mush a win win, or worst case it's an isk dump that gives players more neural remaps, which we all want


The mission reward count as 8.5 % of the total isk faucets. Yes they are important.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#42 - 2012-10-09 13:41:05 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:


The mission reward count as 8.5 % of the total isk faucets. Yes they are important.



Considering the diagram that was shown said "Bounties" were the biggest faucet and I used to make more off bounties then mission rewards at L4 missions in High Sec together they are probably the biggest.

Unless belt/anom bounties are about 70-80% of the "bounties" in total. In which case missions would be a close second.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Doddy
Excidium.
#43 - 2012-10-09 13:44:36 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:


Are Rats being farmed? Yes. This is a given I think, and it also allows a few players to hoard massive amounts of ISK, provided they are in the right place. That place would be Nullsec of course, with the highest bounty on Rats, and the least amount of access for the majority of the player base.
.


What makes you think null sec is where all the bounty isk somes from? There are hi sec lvl 4 mission systems with more npcs killed per hour than entire 0.0 regions.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-10-09 13:50:50 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:


The mission reward count as 8.5 % of the total isk faucets. Yes they are important.



Considering the diagram that was shown said "Bounties" were the biggest faucet and I used to make more off bounties then mission rewards at L4 missions in High Sec together they are probably the biggest.

Unless belt/anom bounties are about 70-80% of the "bounties" in total. In which case missions would be a close second.


YES bounties are the most important ISK faucet with a significance of 51% but is in a delicate situation, if you touch it all the player base will complain, while the 8.5% of the mission reward is a significant amount of ISK, and is in a spot that is easy to be tackled and removed withouth complain from the players as they will get LP instead of ISK, ending up reciving the same "Value" for the mission.

Small changes can shift a hazardous inflation to a hazardous deflation. Don't forget that the economy must grow as the player base grow.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-10-09 13:59:53 UTC
I think what is being said is the 8.5% of isk being generated form missions is more of a side effect, players do missions for the rat bounties not the agent reward. If agent rewards were completely replaced with LP I don't believe many players would be too terribly upset as long as the mission rat bounties remained the same.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Josef Djugashvilis
#46 - 2012-10-09 14:41:59 UTC
My mission rewards have more or less stayed the same for quite some time. In fact, with the introduction of the wonderful 'scrap metal' my mission pay has gone down somewhat.

So, as inflation rises, I am in effect, taking a pay cut.


Do not buy PLEX and their cost become immaterial.

This is not a signature.

Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-10-09 18:15:37 UTC
Ship-customizing could also create a huge ISK-Sink.. Just optical customizing at first (colours, emblems and stuff like that) , could be enhanced in multiple ways later.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#48 - 2012-10-09 18:29:00 UTC
PLEX prices are an indicator of the Pay to Play vs Play to Play ratio.

It really has little to do with the overall amount of isk in the market, just how much of that isk is chasing PLEX to keep accounts active.

If the PLEX to keep your accounts active are costing you more isk, it means that you are competing with more people to get those PLEXes. For those more likely to buy PLEX with cash and sell them for isk a higher price is a good thing.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#49 - 2012-10-09 22:49:29 UTC

So I'm Gathering suggestions of ISK sinks here:


  • Empire Frontier Taxes on goods.
  • --- don't know what you mean. A Tax on goods in Highsec, that's less in nullsec and non-existent in Null?? That's alright... reversed is broken!!

  • POS construction Taxes.
  • --- No... POS activities should be encouraged, not discouraged... especially POS construction.

  • New NPC Feature: Propaganda/Advertising
  • ^^ This is interesting, but I think it may require too much manpower to maintain.

  • Dynamic NPC Costs.
  • ^^ They would have to be extremely dynamic to matter.

  • Docking Tax.
  • ^^ Meh... mabye.. for NPC stations...

  • Stargate Tax.
  • ^^ Absolutely NOT... you want to encourage players to fly around... and what happens if someone is in space and they run out of isk!! Negative wallets are a bad idea, and really, taxing people for flying about is just DUMB!!!

  • Manufacture Tax
  • ^^ Very much this... increase the cost of using Highsec NPC Manufacturing slots by a factor of 100. This will become a major isk sink, encourage nullsec, lowsec, and POS operations, and are economy could handle it without a problem!! (The price of goods would increase by 5-10%, which we can easily handle!).

  • Refining Fees.
  • ^^ meh... I'd rather see all perfect refine rates removed from NPC stations.

  • Substitution of tags and insignias by ISK in the LP Store.
  • ^^ This could help.... although I still think tags are a very good commodity, as they take time and energy to collect.

  • NPC Hauling services.
  • ^^ Absolutely NOT.... Hauling services should be player driven with all the associated risks and rewards, not NPC driven!!!!

  • Increase NPC hi
  • sec manufacturing lines fee.
  • ^^ Again Very much this... increase the cost of using Highsec NPC Manufacturing slots by a factor of 100. This will become a major isk sink, encourage nullsec, lowsec, and POS operations, and are economy could handle it without a problem!! (The price of goods would increase by 5-10%, which we can easily handle!). Note, this should be extended to all S&I lines in NPC stations!
  • Make Insurance a ISK sink, making it consume ISK and return LP.
  • ^^ Interesting idea... although who's LP?? Concords?

  • POS/Starbase (LP) Insurance.
  • ^^ Meh.... Not unless you make offline POS's much, much easier to kill!!!

  • Add more NPC sold items: Neural remap, vanity items, especial clones, etc... ( they could also cost part LP)
  • ^^ These ideas sound terrible to me!!! And clone costs are way out of whack for older players....

  • Extra Manufacture Tax on Foreign Ships ( Like building non caldari ship or pirate ship in caldari space)
  • ^^ This is acceptable, but by itself would only be a minor isk sink!

  • Make Refining fee to take ISK instead of minerals.
  • ^^ This is ok.... on NPC stations...

  • Increase NPC Corporation Tax.
  • ^^ This should be done!!

  • Add Ship customization service (costing ISK)
  • ^^ like paint jobs... sure.... like services that actually alter ship performance... you'll probably break something...


Things to add:
-- Increase broker fees for contracts and buy/sell orders.
-- Majorly increase the broker fees for modifying buy/sell orders.... Make it expensive to play the 0.01 isk game!
-- Increase NPC station taxes, perhaps having a dynamic tax based on your standings to the corp.
Alexila Quant
Versatility Production Corporation' LLC
#50 - 2012-10-09 23:11:12 UTC
The issue with plex isn't so much an issue with there being too much isk in the economy, it's more of an issue of there being too few plex being sold. With each new feature CCP adds to the Plex system, the less plex are being sold and the more they are being used for said new feature. CCP keeps adding new functions to plex and thus making them more expensive for people who need to buy them.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#51 - 2012-10-09 23:20:23 UTC
Nerf everything high sec by about 25%

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2012-10-10 00:00:52 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

  • Docking Tax.
  • ^^ Meh... mabye.. for NPC stations...

  • Stargate Tax.
  • ^^ Absolutely NOT... you want to encourage players to fly around... and what happens if someone is in space and they run out of isk!! Negative wallets are a bad idea, and really, taxing people for flying about is just DUMB!!!



    These two comments are one in the same, but yet you give different answers for each.

    You can run out of isk while flying around reguardless of whether you're being charged to jump through gates or not.

    So, lets say you just got popped in the forge. While you're flying to jita you're buying a ship, fittings, and ammo.

    So you spend all you isk on that ship, and when you get to Jita 4-4......You can't dock because you don't have isk...
    How are you supposed to get anywhere in Eve? Once you ran out of money you'd be boned, and lets face it.
    How many times as a noob have we all flown around mining/ratting/missioning and didn't have an isk to our name.

    Well, you can't do anything if you can't dock... It would effectively be GAME OVER.....

    Garviel Tarrant wrote:

    Nerf everything high sec by about 25%


    Shut your stupid face.

    lol, seriously though, reducing high sec beyond what they've reduced it to at this point will do nothing but reduce the amount of players in eve.
    Not to mention is would take so much longer for anyone to get anywhere.
    Hell, lots of null/low/wh players supplement their toon with a high sec toon/jump clone.

    I'm pretty sure that CCP is well aware that reducing High sec anymore than they already have would be detrimental to their income.
    So far in nerfing high sec they have
    no more capitals in high sec, removed lvl 5 missions, reduced LP payout, removed agent quality which effectively did away with high quality agents, nerfed mission loot, nerfed drone loot, nerfed salvage, nerfed incursions, nerfed, nerfed, nerfed.

    Anymore nerfing in high sec is just a terrible terrible idea.
    Kitt JT
    True North.
    #53 - 2012-10-10 00:10:31 UTC
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #54 - 2012-10-10 03:03:22 UTC
    HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

  • Docking Tax.
  • ^^ Meh... mabye.. for NPC stations...

  • Stargate Tax.
  • ^^ Absolutely NOT... you want to encourage players to fly around... and what happens if someone is in space and they run out of isk!! Negative wallets are a bad idea, and really, taxing people for flying about is just DUMB!!!



    These two comments are one in the same, but yet you give different answers for each.

    You can run out of isk while flying around reguardless of whether you're being charged to jump through gates or not.

    So, lets say you just got popped in the forge. While you're flying to jita you're buying a ship, fittings, and ammo.

    So you spend all you isk on that ship, and when you get to Jita 4-4......You can't dock because you don't have isk...
    How are you supposed to get anywhere in Eve? Once you ran out of money you'd be boned, and lets face it.
    How many times as a noob have we all flown around mining/ratting/missioning and didn't have an isk to our name.

    Well, you can't do anything if you can't dock... It would effectively be GAME OVER.....


    Good Point.... Absolutely No to the Docking Tax then!!!!!
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #55 - 2012-10-10 03:22:51 UTC
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    So I'm Gathering suggestions of ISK sinks here:


    • Empire Frontier Taxes on goods.
    • --- don't know what you mean. A Tax on goods in Highsec, that's less in nullsec and non-existent in Null?? That's alright... reversed is broken!!




    a fee on imports or exports (trade tariff) in and out of a country. This would apply to all goods in Industrial ships when transporting goods form Empire to Empire space. So it would have no effect on null sec until goods were brought into empire space.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

    HELLBOUNDMAN
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #56 - 2012-10-10 04:23:24 UTC
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    So I'm Gathering suggestions of ISK sinks here:


    • Empire Frontier Taxes on goods.
    • --- don't know what you mean. A Tax on goods in Highsec, that's less in nullsec and non-existent in Null?? That's alright... reversed is broken!!




    a fee on imports or exports (trade tariff) in and out of a country. This would apply to all goods in Industrial ships when transporting goods form Empire to Empire space. So it would have no effect on null sec until goods were brought into empire space.


    I was gonna toss out some numbers for how much isk it would cost per m3, but as I though deeper into this and began thinking of a frig transporting goods, I realized that it is impossible to determine whether the goods transported are trade goods, or if they're mearly personal goods being relocated. So, it wouldn't work.

    Also, thid would kill regional and SOV trading, which is not a good thing by any means... everyone would just pile up in the forge region in order to get the best deals on items due to transport taxes increasing costs in other regions.
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #57 - 2012-10-10 04:28:35 UTC
    HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    So I'm Gathering suggestions of ISK sinks here:


    • Empire Frontier Taxes on goods.
    • --- don't know what you mean. A Tax on goods in Highsec, that's less in nullsec and non-existent in Null?? That's alright... reversed is broken!!




    a fee on imports or exports (trade tariff) in and out of a country. This would apply to all goods in Industrial ships when transporting goods form Empire to Empire space. So it would have no effect on null sec until goods were brought into empire space.


    I was gonna toss out some numbers for how much isk it would cost per m3, but as I though deeper into this and began thinking of a frig transporting goods, I realized that it is impossible to determine whether the goods transported are trade goods, or if they're mearly personal goods being relocated. So, it wouldn't work.

    Also, thid would kill regional and SOV trading, which is not a good thing by any means... everyone would just pile up in the forge region in order to get the best deals on items due to transport taxes increasing costs in other regions.


    I don't think it would kill it, as such it does not have to be a variable number per say, just variable on the m3 of the items regardless of what is inside, or a fixed number based on the type of ship, freighters highest, t1 industrial lowest, of course if the ship is only half full, then the fee is cut in half.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

    HELLBOUNDMAN
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #58 - 2012-10-10 04:40:02 UTC
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

  • POS/Starbase (LP) Insurance.
  • ^^ Meh.... Not unless you make offline POS's much, much easier to kill!!!

    My thought was not actually an insurance, but rather a tax for having a POS in high sec, and less so a tax in low sec.(low sec would be cheaper).
    This would help to add a negative aspect of having a POS in high sec where it is safe from capital assaults.
    If a POS is constructed properly, they can be almost unstoppable in high sec... So, a monthly/weekly tax sounds fair for this luxury. It's similarto being in an NPC corp.

    Quote:
  • Add more NPC sold items: Neural remap, vanity items, especial clones, etc... ( they could also cost part LP)
  • ^^ These ideas sound terrible to me!!! And clone costs are way out of whack for older players....

    I'm actually a huge fan of Neural remaps as an isk dump.
    Remove the free yearly remaps, then replace them with an isk dump neural remap that can only be performed every 3 or 6 months.
    TONS of players would pay for this, expecially if you were allowed to remap more often than you can now.
    I say a fair across the board costs of 500 mil.
    Now, I've also fought with the consideration of a dynamic costs that increases as your SP increases, but there is a slight problem with dynamic costs because player like myself who has focused heavily on PVE would have a high remap costs for the sake of attempting to cross train towards pvp or industry.

    Quote:
  • Extra Manufacture Tax on Foreign Ships ( Like building non caldari ship or pirate ship in caldari space)
  • ^^ This is acceptable, but by itself would only be a minor isk sink!

    Honestly, this would have no effect at all because players will simply move their manufacturing, or would begin manufacturing different ships that have no tax. Not to mention it could have a negative effect of reducing the availability of certain ships, AND would require quite a bit of programming for CCP in order to dictate this to production at a POS.

    Quote:
  • Make Refining fee to take ISK instead of minerals.
  • ^^ This is ok.... on NPC stations...

    agreed

    Quote:
  • Increase NPC Corporation Tax.
  • ^^ This should be done!!

    again, many players suppliment their low/null/wh/high sec war toons with toons in npc corps. So, in doing something of this nature you're essentially reducing the amount of pvp in Eve by reducing these players incomes.

    HELLBOUNDMAN
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #59 - 2012-10-10 04:45:29 UTC
    Quote:
  • Add Ship customization service (costing ISK)
  • ^^ like paint jobs... sure.... like services that actually alter ship performance... you'll probably break something...
    [/list]

    I want a solid chrome ship...
    Honesly, this could be done through Arrum(or however you spell that).
    Though it does cost a PLEX to get it, in removing that PLEX from the system, you're effectively creating an isk dump.
    And with custom paint jobs, this would be quite popular.
    Also, based on ship size, and I will kill someone if they're effectively 400 dollar pants.

    Quote:
    Things to add:
    -- Increase broker fees for contracts and buy/sell orders.
    -- Majorly increase the broker fees for modifying buy/sell orders.... Make it expensive to play the 0.01 isk game!
    -- Increase NPC station taxes, perhaps having a dynamic tax based on your standings to the corp.


    I don't agree with either of these because they have too much effect on the market and would increase the costs of items, because much like real life, the seller isn't going to take the hit, but rather transfer the costs onto the buyer
    HELLBOUNDMAN
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #60 - 2012-10-10 04:48:26 UTC
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:


    I don't think it would kill it, as such it does not have to be a variable number per say, just variable on the m3 of the items regardless of what is inside, or a fixed number based on the type of ship, freighters highest, t1 industrial lowest, of course if the ship is only half full, then the fee is cut in half.


    Again though, just because I have a ship full of goods doesn't mean they're trade goods.

    I could simply be relocating, or transporting items for my corp/alliance.

    Also, you would effectively be forcing players to may more taxes on items they've already paid taxes on, and will have to pay more taxes on when they sell them, if they sell them.

    This is the type of thing that kills international trading in the real world, and would probably have the same effect in game.