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Issler, I'm Curious and Hope You'll Reply

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Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#21 - 2012-10-08 18:43:41 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:

Barge changes do not address anything you described and were not intended to. I think I've said that several times already.

Issler

So you're stating that the changes weren't intended to remove the concept of "plateauing" into a "top tier" ship, which instead they merely changed to the Mackinaw from the Hulk? Interesting. It sure seems like that was a stated goal, and that you'd have an opinion on where they might have went wrong.

Also, far from making botting more difficult, the new ore bays made it easier. Roll

I suppose it's a good thing they weren't intended to address any of the changes you felt were important. Otherwise, you'd actually have a reason to comment here.

In the discussion we had prior to your election, you insisted there were plenty of options for miners besides giving them a giant bag of hitpoints to mine in. The quotes I brought up were among those, and I felt they were relevant to what we saw in the changes. Apparently you disagree with yourself.

Two faces of CSM Issler Dainze?

Forum readers can now decide for themselves.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#22 - 2012-10-08 19:27:51 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:

Barge changes do not address anything you described and were not intended to. I think I've said that several times already.

Issler

So you're stating that the changes weren't intended to remove the concept of "plateauing" into a "top tier" ship, which instead they merely changed to the Mackinaw from the Hulk? Interesting. It sure seems like that was a stated goal, and that you'd have an opinion on where they might have went wrong.

Also, far from making botting more difficult, the new ore bays made it easier. Roll

I suppose it's a good thing they weren't intended to address any of the changes you felt were important. Otherwise, you'd actually have a reason to comment here.

In the discussion we had prior to your election, you insisted there were plenty of options for miners besides giving them a giant bag of hitpoints to mine in. The quotes I brought up were among those, and I felt they were relevant to what we saw in the changes. Apparently you disagree with yourself.

Two faces of CSM Issler Dainze?

Forum readers can now decide for themselves.


What about more interesting mining content in plan and coming do you not understand. Miners are not complaining about the barges and honestly those changes were going to happen even if I didn't like them because they were in plan before CSM 7 even took office, so maybe you should go find someone in CSM 6 to troll.

Issler
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-10-08 19:57:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Issler Dainze wrote:
What about more interesting mining content in plan and coming do you not understand.
Vapourware, until we actually see proof of development.

You really have no clue what the barge changes were supposed to accomplish, do you? You really paid that little attention to anything CCP was saying in the run up to those changes?

The AFK CSM Representative. Perfect rep for the mining profession.

Do you intend to run for CSM8, Issler?
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#24 - 2012-10-08 19:58:56 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:

Barge changes do not address anything you described and were not intended to. I think I've said that several times already.

Issler

So you're stating that the changes weren't intended to remove the concept of "plateauing" into a "top tier" ship, which instead they merely changed to the Mackinaw from the Hulk? Interesting. It sure seems like that was a stated goal, and that you'd have an opinion on where they might have went wrong.

Also, far from making botting more difficult, the new ore bays made it easier. Roll

I suppose it's a good thing they weren't intended to address any of the changes you felt were important. Otherwise, you'd actually have a reason to comment here.

In the discussion we had prior to your election, you insisted there were plenty of options for miners besides giving them a giant bag of hitpoints to mine in. The quotes I brought up were among those, and I felt they were relevant to what we saw in the changes. Apparently you disagree with yourself.

Two faces of CSM Issler Dainze?

Forum readers can now decide for themselves.


What about more interesting mining content in plan and coming do you not understand. Miners are not complaining about the barges and honestly those changes were going to happen even if I didn't like them because they were in plan before CSM 7 even took office, so maybe you should go find someone in CSM 6 to troll.

Issler

What about the exhumer changes makes botting more difficult? Bots don't care how interesting it is. Roll

What about the exhumer changes reduced plateauing? It all looks the same to me, only much less valuable.

Issler, Value = Demand / Supply.

With that in mind, what's best for miners?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#25 - 2012-10-08 20:55:18 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
What about more interesting mining content in plan and coming do you not understand.
Vapourware, until we actually see proof of development.

You really have no clue what the barge changes were supposed to accomplish. do you? You really paid that little attention to anything CCP was saying in the run up to those changes?

The AFK CSM Representative. Perfect rep for the mining profession.

Do you intend to run for CSM8, Issler?


Actually I am sure you are right. Nothing is ever coming out in Eve again, CCP is sitting around working on absolutely nothing. Since you can't see them coding they most not be coming out with anything new....

You can find out what the intention was for barges here since you seem to be too lazy to look ship rebalancing

No plans for CSM 8.

Issler
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-10-08 21:20:42 UTC
You know if you really wanted some kind of actual answer about barges vs. direction of industry changes, you could probably ask Seleene as well - a large portion of his platform was industrial changes, and I daresay it had a far greater level of detail and vision than Issler's "this is a list of things I do in game so vote for me ok" platform.

I doubt you'd get much in the way of answers, but it's gotta be more satisfying than lobbing this many words at low-hanging fruit like Issler, right?

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-10-08 21:24:58 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
... but it's gotta be more satisfying than lobbing this many words at low-hanging fruit like Issler, right?
The more Issler posts, the more stuff we have to link too should he/she decide to run for CSM8.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-10-08 21:28:39 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
... but it's gotta be more satisfying than lobbing this many words at low-hanging fruit like Issler, right?
The more Issler posts, the more stuff we have to link too should he/she decide to run for CSM8.


Ohhh I get it, you're one of those people that believe votes happen because of issues!

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-10-08 21:51:23 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
You can find out what the intention was for barges here since you seem to be too lazy to look ship rebalancing
And they failed. Everybody uses a Mackinaw (if they have the skills) no matter the situation. The success of a project is not based on whether miners are shedding tears. It based on whether the design principles were achieved. They definitely were not.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-10-08 21:52:17 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
... but it's gotta be more satisfying than lobbing this many words at low-hanging fruit like Issler, right?
The more Issler posts, the more stuff we have to link too should he/she decide to run for CSM8.
Ohhh I get it, you're one of those people that believe votes happen because of issues!
But enough votes can probably be swung to ensure she/he doesn't get a seat, if he/she decides to run again.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#31 - 2012-10-08 23:19:59 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
... but it's gotta be more satisfying than lobbing this many words at low-hanging fruit like Issler, right?
The more Issler posts, the more stuff we have to link too should he/she decide to run for CSM8.
Ohhh I get it, you're one of those people that believe votes happen because of issues!
But enough votes can probably be swung to ensure she/he doesn't get a seat, if he/she decides to run again.


Good luck with that.

Issler
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#32 - 2012-10-08 23:28:14 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
You can find out what the intention was for barges here since you seem to be too lazy to look ship rebalancing
And they failed. Everybody uses a Mackinaw (if they have the skills) no matter the situation. The success of a project is not based on whether miners are shedding tears. It based on whether the design principles were achieved. They definitely were not.


Something that didn't work as intended in Eve!!! Never!!!

The barge stats were bounced off all of the CSM 7 and no one saw any major issues. You seem to think the changes are a total failure. I am not seeing fires burning in Jita over this, How about ask some of the other CSM how such a horrible thing escaped their attention as well.

Mostly, this move along, nothing to see here.......

Issler
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#33 - 2012-10-09 01:45:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Issler Dainze wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
You can find out what the intention was for barges here since you seem to be too lazy to look ship rebalancing
And they failed. Everybody uses a Mackinaw (if they have the skills) no matter the situation. The success of a project is not based on whether miners are shedding tears. It based on whether the design principles were achieved. They definitely were not.


Something that didn't work as intended in Eve!!! Never!!!

The barge stats were bounced off all of the CSM 7 and no one saw any major issues. You seem to think the changes are a total failure. I am not seeing fires burning in Jita over this, How about ask some of the other CSM how such a horrible thing escaped their attention as well.

Mostly, this move along, nothing to see here.......

Issler

But you said you didn't think giving miners a big bag of hit points was necessarily the solution to fixing mining.

If you didn't think that was the solution, and you were concerned about botting, why didn't you see the ore bay and the EHP buffs and raise a red flag?

Were you influenced by peer pressure from the other CSM members or in some other way under duress?

I just don't get where the disconnect happens, unless you were duped by the extra yield, convenience, and survivability.

All of which were Trojan Horses you claimed to be aware of and against.

Congratulations. Roll

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#34 - 2012-10-09 02:31:19 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
You can find out what the intention was for barges here since you seem to be too lazy to look ship rebalancing
And they failed. Everybody uses a Mackinaw (if they have the skills) no matter the situation. The success of a project is not based on whether miners are shedding tears. It based on whether the design principles were achieved. They definitely were not.


Something that didn't work as intended in Eve!!! Never!!!

The barge stats were bounced off all of the CSM 7 and no one saw any major issues. You seem to think the changes are a total failure. I am not seeing fires burning in Jita over this, How about ask some of the other CSM how such a horrible thing escaped their attention as well.

Mostly, this move along, nothing to see here.......

Issler

But you said you didn't think giving miners a big bag of hit points was necessarily the solution to fixing mining.

If you didn't think that was the solution, and you were concerned about botting, why didn't you see the ore bay and the EHP buffs and raise a red flag?

Were you influenced by peer pressure from the other CSM members or in some other way under duress?

I just don't get where the disconnect happens, unless you were duped by the extra yield, convenience, and survivability.

All of which were Trojan Horses you claimed to be aware of and against.

Congratulations. Roll


I don't see barge changes as bad and most miners are happy with the barge changes. The reality is all other ships have evolved over time and adding some HP to barges is probably overdue. Sorry you don't like them. I am sure there is some other part of Eve you can find to enjoy since the horror of the barges clearly has you no longer mining.

No miner would not vote for me over the barges, you need to do better.

We aren't getting anywhere with the barge trolling, how about start attacking me over crime watch, I am sure that is already in queue....

Issler
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#35 - 2012-10-09 02:37:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Issler Dainze wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
You can find out what the intention was for barges here since you seem to be too lazy to look ship rebalancing
And they failed. Everybody uses a Mackinaw (if they have the skills) no matter the situation. The success of a project is not based on whether miners are shedding tears. It based on whether the design principles were achieved. They definitely were not.


Something that didn't work as intended in Eve!!! Never!!!

The barge stats were bounced off all of the CSM 7 and no one saw any major issues. You seem to think the changes are a total failure. I am not seeing fires burning in Jita over this, How about ask some of the other CSM how such a horrible thing escaped their attention as well.

Mostly, this move along, nothing to see here.......

Issler

But you said you didn't think giving miners a big bag of hit points was necessarily the solution to fixing mining.

If you didn't think that was the solution, and you were concerned about botting, why didn't you see the ore bay and the EHP buffs and raise a red flag?

Were you influenced by peer pressure from the other CSM members or in some other way under duress?

I just don't get where the disconnect happens, unless you were duped by the extra yield, convenience, and survivability.

All of which were Trojan Horses you claimed to be aware of and against.

Congratulations. Roll


I don't see barge changes as bad and most miners are happy with the barge changes. The reality is all other ships have evolved over time and adding some HP to barges is probably overdue. Sorry you don't like them. I am sure there is some other part of Eve you can find to enjoy since the horror of the barges clearly has you no longer mining.

No miner would not vote for me over the barges, you need to do better.

We aren't getting anywhere with the barge trolling, how about start attacking me over crime watch, I am sure that is already in queue....

Issler

OK, miners like the changes. You like the changes. You feel my questions aren't fair and I'm trolling you. That's fine. You're off the hook. I don't want to know what you think about plateauing and how it relates to the new barges. I don't even want to know if you think the cavernous ore holds might just encourage botting and undesirable (according to CCP) AFK PVE. That's all well and good. But can you tell me in all sincerity that somehow mining is impervious to the very simple economic formula:

Value = Demand / Supply?

How does a lack of risk or interference with gathering increase the value of mining as a profession?

That's a very simple question that deals with empirical data and solid maths. It's not subject to flights of whimsy or emotional outpourings. It's an equation that describes value, and in the context of these changes, mining will be cheapened - bots or not.

Do you have any rebuttal to this claim, since you're off the hook on all the other questions you wouldn't answer?

Also, why do you think I'm trolling you? These were your words and I'm just trying to get your opinion.

This shouldn't be like trying to get classified data, Issler. Roll

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#36 - 2012-10-09 04:40:59 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:


nonsense about evil barge changes



I keep offering my opinions, but you want to ignore them.

I certainly didn't drive the barge changes. I find them, given that every other ship in Eve has been continually buffed in one manner or another and new more powerful ships get added, like new T2 and even T3 that are often used to blow up folks mining, adding a buff to long neglected barges seems logical. I am glad the barges got the luvin' they did. You can still gank a barge, you just need to work harder at it. Now the effort and cost to "interfere" with a miner is more even.

For me to answer your question about the "value of mining" we have to agree as to how to measure it. Because I would argue that it isn't isk per hour, but are miners happier per hour. Since a lot of miners are more casual in their play styles I think the barge changes are considered by most miners as improving the "value" of mining, which is to say, their enjoyment and desire to mine.

To prove me wrong you need to show some actual data to show miners are unhappy with the changes and like mining less.

There is as straight forward an answer as there can be.

Miners happy = barge changes added "value" to mining

since you seem to like formulas.

also

barge changes = CSM 7 said "looks good"

not

barge changes = just Issler supported them

Issler
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#37 - 2012-10-09 07:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Issler Dainze wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:


nonsense about evil barge changes



I keep offering my opinions, but you want to ignore them.

I certainly didn't drive the barge changes. I find them, given that every other ship in Eve has been continually buffed in one manner or another and new more powerful ships get added, like new T2 and even T3 that are often used to blow up folks mining, adding a buff to long neglected barges seems logical. I am glad the barges got the luvin' they did. You can still gank a barge, you just need to work harder at it. Now the effort and cost to "interfere" with a miner is more even.

For me to answer your question about the "value of mining" we have to agree as to how to measure it. Because I would argue that it isn't isk per hour, but are miners happier per hour. Since a lot of miners are more casual in their play styles I think the barge changes are considered by most miners as improving the "value" of mining, which is to say, their enjoyment and desire to mine.

To prove me wrong you need to show some actual data to show miners are unhappy with the changes and like mining less.

There is as straight forward an answer as there can be.

Miners happy = barge changes added "value" to mining

since you seem to like formulas.

also

barge changes = CSM 7 said "looks good"

not

barge changes = just Issler supported them

Issler

Fair enough.

Sacrificing the quantitative and objective health of the market for the qualitative and subjective health of a factor we'll just call "mining happiness" might be an acceptable trade-off. If you're aware that the value of mining is different depending on which metric you are looking at, I can accept that. I don't think it's good for Eve, but I can accept it.

You also make a valid point about the rest of the CSM signing off on the barge and exhumer changes.

Unfortunately not all of them were quoted as giving viable alternatives for buffing mining that were well-thought and consisted of more than just ore bays and hit points. You were.

Thanks for your opinions. They have been quite informative. +1 for actually taking the time.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#38 - 2012-10-11 19:57:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Issler Dainze wrote:
As for ice prices, markets work, if miners aren't happy with the prices they have the freedom to do something else with their time.

Issler

Sometimes we miss the important things, I guess. I almost totally missed replying to this.

Issler, you are correct. Markets work, which is why Ice prices continue to plummet.

Do you regret that current miner greed is damaging the future of mining for those not involved yet? I'm talking specifically about new players who might desire to enter the career of mining, if there's any ambiguity.

As prices move lower, the value of mining as a full-fledged career is reduced. Your statement above emphasizes this point is true.

Well, what about the "new miners?" Should they just go do something else too?

I think this is a legitimate question, seeing as we agree that the market works.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Mezoforta
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-10-12 02:10:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mezoforta
Issler Dainze wrote:
I am not hearing any miners complaining about the barge changes. I see some trolls trying to make some strange case that the barge changes "hurt" miners.

The barge changes were not about stopping botting. CCP has other things constantly in play to address that.

So if some miners have some mining related topics they would like to discuss let me know but realize, there is a full plate of work on CCP's table already so if its some big new thing, you won't see it for years.

Issler




Of course your not going to hear miners complain about the changes because they are helping them right now but in the long run it will screw them because then everyone will have a million dollars. It would be like me complaining when someone gives me a million dollars it would be stupid to do when I first get it but then if everyone had a million dollars then I'm no longer special and my money doesn't look as cool anymore.
Mezoforta
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-10-12 02:22:51 UTC
These changes will only encourage botting they won't hinder it because if these changes happen then the barges will be damn near invincible. This game is built on supply and demand so if ships don't go poof miners sell less minerals and production of barges drops. Think about it yes the people who are around when the change first happens yeah they will make more isk but those joining the game later that want to do mining or production they will make **** for isk think of the future of this great game we call EvE don't let it get ****** up like WoW and Diablo 3