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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak First post First post First post
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Clipped Wingz Safety. 8
Wrathful Hawk Clipped Wingz Safety. Likes received: 8	#4421 - 2012-10-08 17:32:23 UTC You're ruining the hurricane, i hope you're proud of yourselves for ruining the best battlecruiser in the game. And not just a little bit, by a country mile. And i'm not talking about the nanofag cane. I'm talking the armour close range brawler. I'm disappointed in you CCP. Very disappointed.

serras bang

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 63

#4422 - 2012-10-08 18:14:55 UTC

S4nn4 wrote:

serras bang wrote:

Arduemont wrote:

I've been watching this thread, and I just wanted to say I am happy to see the proposal has changed.

All of my original concerns have pretty much been addressed. I doubt many people ever bother to post to say thanks to CCP for paying attention to our concerns, because as soon as they see that their concerns are addressed they just stop watching the thread.

So I want to take this operability to say thanks, for myself, but also for all the people too lazy to say it themselves.

Pirate

thing is they havent been ccp simply went away and said how can we achieve the same nerf we wanted but present it in a differant way with the sig radius and the flight time being so heavily nerfed we are losing the same dmg expecialy with the radius all criuser sized ships should have the sig radius after basic skills to lay full dmg on there class size simple as that reguardless if there t2 or not and tbh the distance nerf is to much.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

Heavy Missiles:
-Damage decreased by 10% (rounded to closest digit)
-Explosion radius increased by 12%

The above values are for T1 and Navy HML only

What does this mean for HML damage?
In the HML nerf version 2.0 the biggest improvement is that large and slow ships (BC's without AB and BS's) will be hit harder (-10% damage, instead of the earlier -20%), small and fast ships (cruisers and below with just basespeed) will still have a damage reduction closer to the first nerf suggestions (some cases down to -19.6% but mostly -16.7%, instead of the earlier -20%). It's an improvement from version 1.0, no secrets in it now serras.

Below is just to show where the numbers come from. No need to read it.

Brief number crunching and interpretation:
Using the missile damage formula and setting all skills to 5 I got these values for a +12% increase in explosion radius:
-Small (below 93.75m sig radius) and slow (below 222m/s for a 30m target and below 122m/s for a 93.75m target) ships will take -(100% - 1/1.12) = -10.7% damage.
-Ships larger than 105m will not have any extra damage reduction. Ships between 93.75m and 105m will see a gradual loss of damage from 0% down to -10.7%.
-Fast ships (complex case with lots of calculations, just giving example speeds of where speed tanking begin for a few different target sizes (also: MWD speeds do not count due to sig bloom, only base speed or AB speed): standard frig (40m) 181m/s+, standard cruiser (125m) 162m/s+ and standard BC (250m) 324m/s+) will take -(100% - (1/1.12)^0.6823) = -7.44% damage while speed tanking.

How to interpret this and how to include the overall -10% damage into these values:
-Small (less than 93.75m) and slow targets will take -19.6% damage ( =-(100% - 0.9*(1/1.12)) )
-Large (over 105m) and slow targets will take -10% damage ( =-(100% - 0.9*1) )
-Any target fast enough to speed tank will take -16.7% ( =-(100% - 0.9*(1/1.12)^0.6823)) )
(-19.6% and -16.7% are ratios and not actual damage, speed tanking is always better, but the damage reduction ratio just happen to be lower for speed tanks. What -16.7% means is very hard to interpret without really understanding the missile equation and it's graphs, an alternative but absolutely accurate interpretation is to think of the +12% to explosion radius as meaning +12% to the target speed instead, meaning that from the HML damage perspective all targets will be moving 12% faster and hence see more damage reduction from speed tanking as a result).

none of witch factors in the t2';s witch is were most of the problems are not only dose t2 furys now have 40% of its range it dose have it now take a base dmg nerf. also take a velocity nerf and also with skills taken away from from explosive radius it now has something that cant lay full dmg on a criuser sized target. on top of that hame now have a smaller explosive radius than long range missles( witch is a joke now as the ranges you were capable of was caldaris only advantage) it would seem to me that something is wrong here close range ammo should be having a smaller base explosive velocity and a larger explosive radius while long range should be the oposite just my opinion.

Excidium. 966
Doddy Excidium. Likes received: 966	#4423 - 2012-10-08 18:35:00 UTC 1 serras bang wrote: it would seem to me that something is wrong here close range ammo should be having a smaller base explosive velocity and a larger explosive radius while long range should be the oposite just my opinion. You are right, it is just your opinion.

Morrigan LeSante

Perkone

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,562

#4424 - 2012-10-08 18:47:26 UTC

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Raven.......

I'm going with LOLWUT on that one.

Know any better ships for structure shooting other than Abaddon and Rev?

PoS bashing isn't my typical "PvP" vision tbh Smile

It is PvP. It can also lead to combat that you see as PvP.

So's ninja salvaging...[]itechnically[/i].

Point being the ravn is a fiasco in 'typical' PvP. Even in your scenario above, if the raven is jumped it dies in a fire.

I guess its good at shooting stationary objects which aren't shooting back Roll

State War Academy Caldari State 455
Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 455	#4425 - 2012-10-08 19:05:32 UTC Morrigan LeSante wrote: I guess its good at shooting stationary objects which aren't shooting back http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8aX60biCE4#t=6m04s It's just a duel but it shows that Raven isn't as bad as some people make it look like.

Crazy Nymphora

Perkone

Caldari State

Likes received: 12

#4426 - 2012-10-08 20:06:15 UTC

Wow... honestly it's getting more and more difficult to keep up with what's going on in your mind CCP...

I don't know if you are doing this to actually balance out the game or trying to mess it up to force people to spend time training for an entirely new skill set for new ships and weapon systems. Because you are completely ruining the famous Heavy Missiles. Version 2 is not getting better than version 1 at all, it only messes the thing up in a different way.

I thought you said 25% range nerf (it's already overkill), but now it's: from 33750 to 13975... it's 60% range nerf... what the...

And Explosion Velocity: from 97 to 68............. It has almost the explosion velocity of a cruise missile!!??!?! And even increased Explosion Radius??

You are really just making it worse and worse. I'm pretty sure lots of people here including me are trying hard to understand it your way but it's getting really difficult. Please be reasonable. This game is great, everyone loves it, you know it.

DO.NOT.RUIN.IT

Please.

OT Smithers

A Farewell To Kings...

Dock Workers

Likes received: 402

#4427 - 2012-10-08 20:26:46 UTC

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Morrigan LeSante wrote:

I guess its good at shooting stationary objects which aren't shooting back Roll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8aX60biCE4#t=6m04s

It's just a duel but it shows that Raven isn't as bad as some people make it look like.

What am I missing? The Rohk spent damn near the entire fight perma jammed with ECM drones and it still managed to kil lthe raven that was hammering it non-stop for five minutes.

Harvey James

The Sengoku Legacy

Likes received: 1,267

#4428 - 2012-10-08 20:37:19 UTC

OT Smithers wrote:

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Morrigan LeSante wrote:

I guess its good at shooting stationary objects which aren't shooting back Roll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8aX60biCE4#t=6m04s

It's just a duel but it shows that Raven isn't as bad as some people make it look like.

What am I missing? The Rohk spent damn near the entire fight perma jammed with ECM drones and it still managed to kil lthe raven that was hammering it non-stop for five minutes.

how about the shield booster vs buffer?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

OT Smithers

A Farewell To Kings...

Dock Workers

Likes received: 402

#4429 - 2012-10-08 20:43:13 UTC

Crazy Nymphora wrote:

Yeah, they are seriously just breaking the hell out of them. It's astonishing how completely disconnected from reality these changes actually are. A case can be made for nerfing HMs a bit -- but only by a small amount, and only once they actually FIX some of the forty or fifty other broken Caldari ships and bring them up to par. But this... this is just incredible.

OT Smithers

A Farewell To Kings...

Dock Workers

Likes received: 402

#4430 - 2012-10-08 20:56:31 UTC

Harvey James wrote:

OT Smithers wrote:

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Morrigan LeSante wrote:

I guess its good at shooting stationary objects which aren't shooting back Roll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8aX60biCE4#t=6m04s

It's just a duel but it shows that Raven isn't as bad as some people make it look like.

What am I missing? The Rohk spent damn near the entire fight perma jammed with ECM drones and it still managed to kil lthe raven that was hammering it non-stop for five minutes.

how about the shield booster vs buffer?

Elaborate. I watched a perma-jammed Rohk still manage to Roflstomp a Raven.

The Raven might very well be the most broken PvP Battleship in the game (if not, it's broken enough that no one bothers to use it), and as part of their "balance" pass CCP is nerfing it some more. Why? Lord only knows.

CCP, seriously, what in the hell are you guys doing?

Gorn Arming

Deep Core Mining Inc.

Caldari State

Likes received: 399

#4431 - 2012-10-08 20:56:47 UTC

OT Smithers wrote:

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Morrigan LeSante wrote:

I guess its good at shooting stationary objects which aren't shooting back Roll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8aX60biCE4#t=6m04s

It's just a duel but it shows that Raven isn't as bad as some people make it look like.

What am I missing? The Rohk spent damn near the entire fight perma jammed with ECM drones and it still managed to kil lthe raven that was hammering it non-stop for five minutes.

Yeah, I'm not seeing why this would make me want to fly a Raven. If you can't win with that many consecutive jams, you might be flying a terrible ship.

Tyberius Franklin

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,014

#4432 - 2012-10-08 20:59:56 UTC

Crazy Nymphora wrote:

The 25% was for T1, not Fury's.


Gorn Arming Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State Likes received: 399	#4433 - 2012-10-08 21:01:03 UTC I am kind of assuming at this point that CCP is throwing their hands in the air with regard to battleship-sized missiles for now. Bombers will be fine due to the 50% hull bonus on explosion velocity, and no actual battleship fits missiles for PvP anyway right now. Hopefully when the balance train makes it to battleships we'll see an improvement.

Harvey James

The Sengoku Legacy

Likes received: 1,267

#4434 - 2012-10-08 21:01:31 UTC

Gorn Arming wrote:

OT Smithers wrote:

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Morrigan LeSante wrote:

I guess its good at shooting stationary objects which aren't shooting back Roll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8aX60biCE4#t=6m04s

It's just a duel but it shows that Raven isn't as bad as some people make it look like.

What am I missing? The Rohk spent damn near the entire fight perma jammed with ECM drones and it still managed to kil lthe raven that was hammering it non-stop for five minutes.

Yeah, I'm not seeing why this would make me want to fly a Raven. If you can't win with that many consecutive jams, you might be flying a terrible ship.

guys active tank wins buffer tank in one on one situations irrelevant of dps that raven can put out its not rocket science

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Noemi Nagano

Perkone

Caldari State

Likes received: 122

#4435 - 2012-10-08 21:25:34 UTC | Edited by: Noemi Nagano

Gorn Arming wrote:

I am kind of assuming at this point that CCP is throwing their hands in the air with regard to battleship-sized missiles for now. Bombers will be fine due to the 50% hull bonus on explosion velocity, and no actual battleship fits missiles for PvP anyway right now.

Hopefully when the balance train makes it to battleships we'll see an improvement.

Exactly. NO ONE fits missiles for PvP in BS-size. Thats exactly my point for ages. And thats why the Drake seems to be "overused". If you have missiles and want tech 1 combat PvP above frig you NEED to fly the Drake. There simply is nothing else.

And this list here:

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Noemi Nagano wrote:

third: name the Caldari missile PvP ships please which are a viable alternative atm in above frig size PvP.

Onyx
Caracal/Caracal Navy Issue
Tengu
Rook
Drake
Widow
Flycatcher
Raven
Scorpion

You have to remember that Caldari isn't just about missiles:
Basilisk
Ferox
Naga
Rokh
Chimera
Falcon

And so on...

made me smile grand time. You couldnt have done it better, thanks.

Onyx is a HIC, Scorp is ECM. Widow is not a damage dealer at all. Tengu is there, Drake is there. Both will get nerfed, for your information... as will the weapons for Rook, Cara/CNI and Onyx ... Caracal has been pointed out by others already .. and Raven is so broken its not even worth mentioning in regards of PvP. And about pos bash my Armageddon might want to have a word with you.

That video though was the best. Like OT Smithers said ... I see a Rokh (which isnt really top of foodchain anyway) which seriously kicks the ass of this poor Raven even when the Rokh is most of the time jammed ...

S4nn4

24th Imperial Crusade

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 17

#4436 - 2012-10-08 21:31:46 UTC

serras bang wrote:

There was a good post about the uses for T2 ammo a few pages ago:

MotorBoatMe WithYourFace wrote:

From Fozzie's spreadsheet, it looks like Faction ammo is the desired ammo for same size / ranged engagements. Precision for a size below, and Fury for a size above / heavy webbed and painted targets. 12 ammo choices per launcher type is pretty flexible. Even the nerfed heavy missiles will have many uses and applications. Need some more in your face damage to a BC in your face use fury.

The hard hitting T2 ammo seem to be intended only for big targets. It's like that now too.

Noemi Nagano

Perkone

Caldari State

Likes received: 122

#4437 - 2012-10-08 21:36:14 UTC

OT Smithers wrote:

This is the balance pass.

How many more years does CCP need? Hell, until a year ago Caldari pilots didn't even have frigates -- rockets and hybrids were still broken. They had the Drake and fifty other broken hulls. And people said that was okay, Caldari were the PvE race, and they had the Drake. Not that folks outside nullsec blobs and mission runners actually used the Drake all that often, but Caldari had it. And for years they have been told that they should be content with that. So what are people going to say now? They gonna say "Oh, well, you have the 100dps Condor!" But CCP has more missile nerfs coming down the pipe, with TDs soon to be destroying missiles, so just how awesome will the Condor (and the soon to be nerfed Drake) be then?

Does ANYONE, outside the fine folks at CCP, actually think the new and improved Moa is balanced against the improved Rupture or the Vexor? Hell, the improved Moa is trash compared to the CURRENT Rupture and Vexor, the new super Ruppie and Vexor are gonna be insane. And the new Caracal will do worse dps than the one we have decorating so many hangars today. CCP didn't improve it with this plan, they nerfed it -- it's a cruiser that does frigate DPS, with no neuts or drones. The Minmatar EWAR cruiser will be a better missile boat than the Caldari missile cruiser, the Minmatar missile Frigate will be a better missile boat than the Caldari missile cruiser -- that's CCPs idea of balance. It's flat ridiculous.

I just feel sorry for the people who have stuck with it and trusted CCP. People who have put months or years into training their Caldari missile skills and ships, all patiently waiting for CCP to eventually make it right. People like the woman in my corporation. She is an embarassed Caldari missile pilot, that's what she does. When it comes to Cruisers, the most prolific class of ships in the game, she can fly them all, but she flies Caldari, so she doesn't have any that are worth flying. She has only the soon-to-be-nerfed Drake and the lol-Raven. And now, with this update, she has announced that she is giving up. After years of waiting she is gonna abandon Caldari and train Minmatar. And what can you say? If you want to play the game and be competetive, you cannot fly Caldari. That's what this balance pass was supposed to correct, but instead CCP has decided to make things worse.

Another posting here quoted for truth. Exactly thats the point. Caldari are screwed over and over again, they are no longer top of PvE for a while (since projectile buff/Pirate BS buff), their only tech 1 med+ sized missile PvP hull (Drake) will get screwed too - go on like that CCP and you have soon less trouble with server load :)

OT Smithers

A Farewell To Kings...

Dock Workers

Likes received: 402

#4438 - 2012-10-08 21:44:50 UTC

Noemi Nagano wrote:

That video though was the best. Like OT Smithers said ... I see a Rokh (which isnt really top of foodchain anyway) which seriously kicks the ass of this poor Raven even when the Rokh is most of the time jammed ...

And amazingly, this video was provided as evidence that the Raven isn't all that bad. Had the Raven not had ECM drones the battle would have been over faster than a T1 frigate duel. That Raven melted faster than a popsicle in a blast furnace.

Noemi Nagano

Perkone

Caldari State

Likes received: 122

#4439 - 2012-10-08 22:07:54 UTC

OT Smithers wrote:

Yeah well, shows who here has a twisted view on Eve how it really is and who does not. If you want Caldari/Missiles to be worst of all, then this Raven did really well. Its all a matter of what you expect :D

I think it did as poor as I knew it would do, I trained Torp spec 5 some time ago and still didnt find them useful in PvP at all. If you feel like Torps and Ravens had a role, then you could find 3 other weapon systems doing the same but just better. And the Raven hull is so broken its a real shame. Whats the description again? Something like "The workhorse of Caldari Navy ..." yeah right. My ass ...

Unknown Dimension 2,306
Razefummel Unknown Dimension Likes received: 2,306	#4440 - 2012-10-08 22:31:49 UTC 2 Its a shame that CCP will crush an whole Weapongroup to Dust because it has no "Turretlike behavior" just because of 2 Ships... Drake and Tengu. Congrats ... that is logic at its best. Missiles will be useles at all ... you will maybe see more HAM-Drakes ... but not for long. 250.000 Skillpunkte gratis zum Start: Buddyinvite Unknown Dimension Forum

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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Clipped Wingz

Safety.

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Excidium.

Perkone

Caldari State

State War Academy

Caldari State

Perkone

Caldari State

A Farewell To Kings...

Dock Workers

The Sengoku Legacy

Deep Core Mining Inc.

Caldari State

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Perkone

Caldari State

24th Imperial Crusade

Amarr Empire

Unknown Dimension