Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The Thorax is already as powerful as a Rupture. Which isn't suppose to be the case, based on what CCP has said. Apparently, a Combat cruiser has more defense and does significantly more damage compared to an attack cruiser.

The Thorax is an anomaly and is more of a Combat cruiser, instead of a attack cruiser. It has non of the weakness of attack cruisers. The only other attack cruiser that comes close to Combat cruiser damage is a Omen, but it has a pretty weak tank by comparison.

Both a Rupture and Thorax do around the same damage @ 20,000m (20km). Both have around the same effective hit-points with any close range setup. The velocity of both ships is similar too.

Gallente tech 1 cruisers have been boosted far beyond the rest and they SHOULD because of blaster range limitations. Which kinda got delt with in another boost, by making them more inline with Minmatar falloff. However, I believe the Vexor may have been boosted TOO much.

Seconding the post above: it's not Armour Boats mass that is the problem, it's the mass of plates.

1600mm plates are balanced. Right sized for BS/BCs; oversized for Cruisers so you trade big tank for big mass increase.
400mm plates are balanced. Too little EHP to be worth it on Cruisers; oversized for Frigs so you trade a big tank for fitting issues and a big mass increase.
200mm plates are barely balanced. Good enough EHP buff to be worth it and not too difficult to fit but does hurt your maneuverability.

The rest aren't really worth it, unless fitting means you have no other option.

Look at the mass and volume of the T1 and T2 plates:
Plate | Mass | Volume
50mm | 18,750Kg | 5m3
100mm | 37,500Kg | 5m3
200mm | 187,500Kg | 10m3
400mm | 375,000Kg | 10m3
800mm | 1,875,000Kg | 20m3
1600mm | 3,750,000Kg | 20m3

It's apparent 50 and 100mm are Frigate sized, 200 and 400mm are Cruiser sized and 800mm and 1600mm are BS sized.

However, it's just not worth fitting a 50 or 100 mm on a Frigate, a 400mm on a Cruiser or a 800mm on a BS. So at present; 200 and 400mm are used on Frigs and Destroyers, 800 and 1600mm on Cruisers and BCs, and 1600mm on BSs.

I'd suggest modifying plates to something like this as a baseline (leaving their EHP and volumes unchanged):

Plate | Mass
50mm | 9,375Kg
100mm | 37,500Kg (honestly, you could probably get rid of this and the 50mm: they're just included for completeness)
200mm | 93,750Kg
400mm | 375,000Kg
800mm | 937,500Kg
1600mm | 3,750,000Kg

This means that for Frigs and Cruisers you have 2 real options for Armour tanking: fit a heavy mod for more tank but drastically less manoeuverability; or a light mod for decent tank (one 800mm Plate II adds similar EHP to a LSEII) and only a (noticable) but minor hit to manoeuvreability.

The result of this, is that armour fit Attack Cruisers are more viable than at present and balancing them should be easier.

Since there's been abit of settling since the whole load of announcements of changes, I decided to take a look at the upcoming patched HAM Caracal, albeit with my ****** math skills hopefully I've done it right (I considered the 10% reduction in HAM PG, Caracal changes in this thread, Guided missile precision changes)

[Caracal, New HAM Caracal]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Warrior II x2
NOTE: These are rough calculations and I'm no math whiz, but they shouldn't be too far from the mark.

Speed: ~1.8km/s
DPS: CN Ammo ~400 dps (selectable) @ ~28km
Explosion radius 79m, which with conjunction with a web, scram & 2 drones should be pretty deadly to frigs
I couldn't be bothered to calculate Rage/Javelin cause of all the changes.
EHP: ~25k with decent resists.

I can see how a long point can be good as that would allow you to kite slower short ranged targets (BCs/Slower Cruisers) while maintaining very good dps out to long point range but its very tight on CPU and would require some finagling but can be done.

As an Amarr pilot I'm still a bit disappointed in the Omen. I've found that the primary shortcoming of the ship is it's somewhat lackluster DPS compared to the Thorax and Rupture, and the bonuses really don't lend well to take advantage of the laser turrets. Sustaining damage over the course of a fight due to the cap usage from lasers has rarely come into play (at least in PvP), so on the whole the cap reduction bonus is somewhat lost in many situations. A tracking or optimal range bonus would really do wonders for the ship, and allow it to contribute to a T1 cruiser battle in a unique way with some very nice medium range projected DPS (15-20km), with an option to close for some higher dps in a brawl.

I think the whole cap recharge/savings management is best determined by module selection rather than the base ship bonus. A 7.5% ROF would help the Omen compete a bit better against its counterparts, however, I think it might have some issues from a balance perspective given the bonus is untested. A cap recharge bonus is also a little lacking given the common usage of neuts.

No no NO! >_<

Why do people try to kite ******* everything.. ****..


Also there is no rule that says that attack cruisers should lose to combat cruisers in a fair fight.

Just that Combat are supposed to be tankier and attack faster..

The true stupid thing is that the rupture is actually faster.

You definitely want a long point, no question about it. This looks like a great ship otherwise.