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One becomes two
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Lyell Wolf
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-10-03 22:01:11 UTC
Fellow pilots,

We all wish to perform at our optimal levels in New Eden when it comes to all things, but no matter how much effort you put forth, sometimes you wish there were two of you. Well, why can't there be two? We live in a universe where almost anything can be done with the application of an implant or a modification of some sort. All you need is ISK, right?

So, is it possible that we can allow our minds to become two? Being able to control the will of one and another at the same time?
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#2 - 2012-10-03 23:02:32 UTC
CONCORD says no.

Sansha Kuvakei says: Why stop at two?
Talus Veran
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-10-05 02:16:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Talus Veran
Why not?

As a Scientist with a very expensive Clone, I have developed a few experimental Combat Clones to preserve my Anonymity.
In my Lab I have a special Pod Link that allows me to Virtually control another clone in real time. It is a little strange not being able to utilize all of my training, as the experimental clone has a different training programed in it's head, but the risk of losing myself outweighs the lost training. It also allows me to focus on different skill sets.

As an occasional Solo Miner, sometimes I need a hauling Ship and do not feel it is time effective to dock every time my cargo hold fills up.

I have developed a few implants (Based on Sansha technology I have studied) that allow me to send commands to a modified clone body that pilots a hauling ship to my location and dock up once I fill it's hold.

It does take a bit more concentration, but as a Capsuler it is more that possible.

The only restrictions CONCORD has placed on Cloning technology is to Prevent more than one exact copies of an individual from running around.
If there were 2 of you, who would be responsible if one of them Murdered someone in a bar?
Legality gets very fuzzy in situations like this.

Co-Host of the Monthly Toronto Player Gathering - Next Meet July 4th

Message me on Twitter:  @talus_veran / @Toronto_EVE

E-mail: talus.veran@gmail.com / torontoeveonline@gmail.com
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-10-05 12:07:33 UTC
Don't be so vulgar. To split one consciousness into two is to fragment the soul. What you're referring to is to create an abomination, intrinsically and undeniably evil in nature.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#5 - 2012-10-05 19:25:37 UTC
Talus,

bonus points if you can engineer a gender change with one of the clones and . . .

:Dave Lister:

edit- Halete, how's that for vulgar? P

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#6 - 2012-10-05 19:40:14 UTC
Halete wrote:
Don't be so vulgar. To split one consciousness into two is to fragment the soul. What you're referring to is to create an abomination, intrinsically and undeniably evil in nature.



Don't be so illogical.

There are risks, but the act of making copies of data is not intrinsically evil. You just have to be certain that control mechanisms are built into the copies to ensure that they cannot run off on their own and decide that they are the ones in charge now. This is the primary reason why CONCORD has disallowed it.

Nation, on the other hand, quite likes the idea (See my Brother Drake Arson and Citizen Arson) because we are capable of having the right controls on the copies.
Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
#7 - 2012-10-06 02:59:33 UTC
Halete wrote:
Don't be so vulgar. To split one consciousness into two is to fragment the soul. What you're referring to is to create an abomination, intrinsically and undeniably evil in nature.



You sound like an Amarrian theologian during a bad hair day. If there is a soul, why must it be limited to only one body? Why can't it extend over two? Is it really such a limited thing, these "souls"?
Oli Kai
EVE University
Ivy League
#8 - 2012-10-06 06:47:10 UTC
To have one's identity fractured, no cut off, no duplicated. Sounds mad. I cannot with one soul-body completely immerse myself in the present nor be in harmony with the universe around me, with the universe within. To take that journey and double it, why stop there triple it or more... I think I would be left quite thin.

Sure you could kill better, mine better, explore better..., but would you be better?

No this life is too thick, even for an immortal. Let me revel in it's complexity, sink in it's depth. You miss so much when you only float at the top.


What a surprise, yet another Eve blog http://capsuleerconfessions.blogspot.com
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#9 - 2012-10-06 11:06:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberious Thessalonia
Oli Kai wrote:
To have one's identity fractured, no cut off, no duplicated. Sounds mad. I cannot with one soul-body completely immerse myself in the present nor be in harmony with the universe around me, with the universe within. To take that journey and double it, why stop there triple it or more... I think I would be left quite thin.

Sure you could kill better, mine better, explore better..., but would you be better?

No this life is too thick, even for an immortal. Let me revel in it's complexity, sink in it's depth. You miss so much when you only float at the top.


"Shattered" is an incorrect term to use. People somehow believe that their minds are whole, indivisible, non-copyable. You are data. Everything you are can be copied, forwarded, edited through accident or decision, remade or revised, examined as source code is examined, debugged, given additional facility because you are modular in design. Responsibilities for tasks you perform as a consequence of daily living can be given to other parts of the machinery in which 'you' reside. That machinery itself can be changed and altered (and if you disagree with me that it should I want you to go and rip out your implants, including your capsuleer ones, right now).

In short, the copy would not be better (unless your reprogrammed it to be better and then you are going to have to define what you mean by 'better'). It would not be worse. It would be you, in every way that matters, because it would be the data.
Oli Kai
EVE University
Ivy League
#10 - 2012-10-06 12:58:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Oli Kai
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Oli Kai wrote:
To have one's identity fractured, no cut off, no duplicated. Sounds mad. I cannot with one soul-body completely immerse myself in the present nor be in harmony with the universe around me, with the universe within. To take that journey and double it, why stop there triple it or more... I think I would be left quite thin.

Sure you could kill better, mine better, explore better..., but would you be better?

No this life is too thick, even for an immortal. Let me revel in it's complexity, sink in it's depth. You miss so much when you only float at the top.


"Shattered" is an incorrect term to use. People somehow believe that their minds are whole, indivisible, non-copyable. You are data. Everything you are can be copied, forwarded, edited through accident or decision, remade or revised, examined as source code is examined, debugged, given additional facility because you are modular in design. Responsibilities for tasks you perform as a consequence of daily living can be given to other parts of the machinery in which 'you' reside. That machinery itself can be changed and altered (and if you disagree with me that it should I want you to go and rip out your implants, including your capsuleer ones, right now).

In short, the copy would not be better (unless your reprogrammed it to be better and then you are going to have to define what you mean by 'better'). It would not be worse. It would be you, in every way that matters, because it would be the data.



We are all capsuleers here, the idea that minds are "non-copyable" dies with your first rebirth in your medical clone. No one argues this. The question I don't think is if we can but should. That sticky squabble between the possible and what is right. I don't pretend to answer this question for everyone. What is true for me may not be true for you. I am not postulating getting in touch with your inner god, hell I am a capsuleer, a killer. I just, at least at this point in my journey, would rather figure out this one soul.

It's not hard to see the benefit of replicating one's consciousness. I am tempted, without an edge you lose. I get it.

As for the legal issues involved, that lies beyond me.
The moral issues, above.

To walk alone without direction can be bliss. To walk alone with purpose, brave. To walk alone with yourself or copies thereof, perhaps wise. To never walk alone, pitiful. To walk with friends, lovers, family, corp-mates, a path perhaps to greatness. To be immortal in New Eden, a game, where greatness is pronounced by the power you wield. I seek greatness but am so meek, I hope to remedy this.

What a surprise, yet another Eve blog http://capsuleerconfessions.blogspot.com
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-10-07 16:37:18 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Halete wrote:
Don't be so vulgar. To split one consciousness into two is to fragment the soul. What you're referring to is to create an abomination, intrinsically and undeniably evil in nature.



Don't be so illogical.

There are risks, but the act of making copies of data is not intrinsically evil. You just have to be certain that control mechanisms are built into the copies to ensure that they cannot run off on their own and decide that they are the ones in charge now. This is the primary reason why CONCORD has disallowed it.

Nation, on the other hand, quite likes the idea (See my Brother Drake Arson and Citizen Arson) because we are capable of having the right controls on the copies.


Copies? It has nothing to do with making copies, Tiberious. We're talking about fracturing a soul. That is so much more than making a copy.

Suppose that the second copy does not have a soul. Then we have created a gross parody of a being who believes it is you, with your memories and your sensations, but cannot ever be you and would be hunted and destroyed if it's nature were revealed. How is that in any way acceptable? Especially when you would put your creation into chains?

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#12 - 2012-10-07 17:12:16 UTC
Halete wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Halete wrote:
Don't be so vulgar. To split one consciousness into two is to fragment the soul. What you're referring to is to create an abomination, intrinsically and undeniably evil in nature.



Don't be so illogical.

There are risks, but the act of making copies of data is not intrinsically evil. You just have to be certain that control mechanisms are built into the copies to ensure that they cannot run off on their own and decide that they are the ones in charge now. This is the primary reason why CONCORD has disallowed it.

Nation, on the other hand, quite likes the idea (See my Brother Drake Arson and Citizen Arson) because we are capable of having the right controls on the copies.


Copies? It has nothing to do with making copies, Tiberious. We're talking about fracturing a soul. That is so much more than making a copy.

Suppose that the second copy does not have a soul. Then we have created a gross parody of a being who believes it is you, with your memories and your sensations, but cannot ever be you and would be hunted and destroyed if it's nature were revealed. How is that in any way acceptable? Especially when you would put your creation into chains?


If you accept that assertion, then by definition, if you have been cloned even once, you are also without a soul.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-10-08 07:23:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Halete
Saede Riordan wrote:

If you accept that assertion, then by definition, if you have been cloned even once, you are also without a soul.


Except... That's wrong, and doesn't follow my premise at all - nor is it the first time I've had to clarify that infact, no, I don't believe that clones are without souls. Instead of addressing my argument, you've attacked a similar but modified argument.

The soul can move between physical vessels - that's all our bodies are. You'll notice that I never raised any objections to the act of cloning itself, but at the act of having multiple clones active at once. That's when the ethical problems come in. To have a receptacle in stand-by for when the current host is destroyed is not intrinsically evil.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-10-08 09:04:20 UTC
Talus Veran wrote:

If there were 2 of you, who would be responsible if one of them Murdered someone in a bar?
Legality gets very fuzzy in situations like this.

Only if you stick to gallentean freedom ideas.
In fact, the situation is pretty clear. If it is your clone, you take responsibility. BOTH of you should be responsible.
The more clones you add, the more responsibility for their actions you will get.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#15 - 2012-10-08 10:57:02 UTC
Yeah, pretty sure you are going to have to define and prove that the 'soul' is something other than the bunch of data that gets copied over into a new body whenever you clone. Does it weigh anything?
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#16 - 2012-10-08 15:44:42 UTC
Halete wrote:
Saede Riordan wrote:

If you accept that assertion, then by definition, if you have been cloned even once, you are also without a soul.


Except... That's wrong, and doesn't follow my premise at all - nor is it the first time I've had to clarify that infact, no, I don't believe that clones are without souls. Instead of addressing my argument, you've attacked a similar but modified argument.

The soul can move between physical vessels - that's all our bodies are. You'll notice that I never raised any objections to the act of cloning itself, but at the act of having multiple clones active at once. That's when the ethical problems come in. To have a receptacle in stand-by for when the current host is destroyed is not intrinsically evil.


You are making a lot of unprovable statements. I tend to agree with the statements of Mr. Thessalonia and Ms. Kim. I find issue drawing moral and ethical statements off things the existence which of cannot be proven empirically. I don't particularly see a reason to believe in a soul without evidence, much less that activating multiple clones 'splits' said hypothetical soul. Why should my actions be limited by your beliefs?

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-10-08 15:53:03 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Yeah, pretty sure you are going to have to define and prove that the 'soul' is something other than the bunch of data that gets copied over into a new body whenever you clone. Does it weigh anything?

Data is just your memory and 'program' - set of rules, according to those you process incoming external information. Your brain is just CPU or hardware on which that program runs. And your soul, or your consciousness, or I dunno how you'd like to name it, is an instance of a program, that processes this data on your CPU.
You can copy data.
You can remake hardware.
But you can't copy a running instance of a program.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-10-08 16:34:22 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:

You are making a lot of unprovable statements.


Of course I am, love. That's faith.



"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#19 - 2012-10-08 17:05:16 UTC
Halete wrote:
Saede Riordan wrote:

You are making a lot of unprovable statements.


Of course I am, love. That's faith.






Which again, is not something to make declarative moral statements limiting scientific growth based on.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Raymond Le Roux
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-10-08 20:06:22 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
Halete wrote:
Saede Riordan wrote:

You are making a lot of unprovable statements.


Of course I am, love. That's faith.






Which again, is not something to make declarative moral statements limiting scientific growth based on.


Unfortunately, It's nothing new, the Amarr Empire has been doing it for years... Except when it suits them, of course.
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