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Buff Ganking--Nevermind, Nerfed Again

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Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#781 - 2012-10-08 05:45:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
That's because "they" pay a flat rate, not for the hulls.


And yet gankers use that sponsor money to get those hulls. If they can't gank 10 exhumers with 100M worth of hulls it means it's unprofitable... Roll


Literally nothing to do with what I said.

One wonders how somebody with no clue has a relevant opinion about buffing ganking.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#782 - 2012-10-08 05:47:55 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
That's because "they" pay a flat rate, not for the hulls.


And yet gankers use that sponsor money to get those hulls. If they can't gank 10 exhumers with 100M worth of hulls it means it's unprofitable... Roll

Do you know what profitable even means in this context?

It's not as if the ganker gets the entire cost of the exhumer he ganks...

You might have hit on something here...

I'm starting to wonder if the bears think that pvp is some kind of zero-sum game where the winner gets everything the other guy owns. It would explain many things. It would certainly explain why they can't grasp why losing an 80-million Tornado in exchange for making 20 million from loot and salvage is unprofitable.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#783 - 2012-10-08 05:52:58 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

I'm starting to wonder if the bears think that pvp is some kind of zero-sum game where the winner gets everything the other guy owns. It would explain many things. It would certainly explain why they can't grasp why losing an 80-million Tornado in exchange for making 20 million from loot and salvage is unprofitable.

Actually we can grasp it. We just can't figure why you'd want to "risk" so much for 20m?

You can make that in 20 minutes or less if you stayed "home".

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#784 - 2012-10-08 05:53:07 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Do you know what profitable even means in this context?

It's not as if the ganker gets the entire cost of the exhumer he ganks...


It seems you don't get it.

They get 100M from Goons after they get 10 exhumer kills on Hulkageddon+ killboard.

That means they can use 10M for hull and mods for every gank. Everything they get from wreck is just profit.

Now it seems that you guys think this 100M for 10 exhumer kills is low so you want a buff.

My solution is: someone starting to pay 500M or 1B for 10 exhumer kills. That would mean ganker will have a lot more money for every gank. This is required because gankers don't like to use teamwork and rather operate on their own.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#785 - 2012-10-08 05:56:18 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Do you know what profitable even means in this context?

It's not as if the ganker gets the entire cost of the exhumer he ganks...


It seems you don't get it.

They get 100M from Goons after they get 10 exhumer kills on Hulkageddon+ killboard.

That means they can use 10M for hull and mods for every gank. Everything they get from wreck is just profit.

Now it seems that you guys think this 100M for 10 exhumer kills is low so you want a buff.

My solution is: someone starting to pay 500M or 1B for 10 exhumer kills. That would mean ganker will have a lot more money for every gank. This is required because gankers don't like to use teamwork and rather operate on their own.

Do you know what products the guy you're posting at even sells?

If you did you'd understand the "for profit" jest. A lot of things require you to think critically.

What metric do you think the 10M isk per Hulk actually represents?

Think about it hard. I'll give you a hint: It's one of the Hulk's constituent components. Roll

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#786 - 2012-10-08 05:59:42 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:

Actually we can grasp it. We just can't figure why you'd want to "risk" so much for 20m?

You can make that in 20 minutes or less if you stayed "home".


Its the sheer number of badly fitted miners out there that make it worthwhile.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#787 - 2012-10-08 06:02:21 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

I'm starting to wonder if the bears think that pvp is some kind of zero-sum game where the winner gets everything the other guy owns. It would explain many things. It would certainly explain why they can't grasp why losing an 80-million Tornado in exchange for making 20 million from loot and salvage is unprofitable.

Actually we can grasp it. We just can't figure why you'd want to "risk" so much for 20m?

You can make that in 20 minutes or less if you stayed "home".

Because we don't do things purely for profit. Getting killmails, making a statement, manipulating the markets, collecting tears/threats are all reasons why we gank. But if you'd like to know arguably the most important reason, it would be because this is our way of taking vengeance against the people who are responsible for this game being dumbed down and casualized.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#788 - 2012-10-08 06:02:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:

Actually we can grasp it. We just can't figure why you'd want to "risk" so much for 20m?

You can make that in 20 minutes or less if you stayed "home".


Its the sheer number of badly fitted miners out there that make it worthwhile.

As I said earlier, the prolific amount of empirical data...

At some point, someone has to get it, right? We're not just talking bee ess.

You can lead a horse to water, but...

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Taiwanistan
#789 - 2012-10-08 06:07:45 UTC
No Jorma we are not going to gank your tanked absolution with nothing in the cargo in a 1.0

TA on wis: "when we have a feature that is its own functional ecosystem of gameplay then hooks into the greater ecosystem of EVE as a whole, and it provides good replayability."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#790 - 2012-10-08 06:16:24 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

I'm starting to wonder if the bears think that pvp is some kind of zero-sum game where the winner gets everything the other guy owns. It would explain many things. It would certainly explain why they can't grasp why losing an 80-million Tornado in exchange for making 20 million from loot and salvage is unprofitable.

Actually we can grasp it. We just can't figure why you'd want to "risk" so much for 20m?

You can make that in 20 minutes or less if you stayed "home".

Because we don't do things purely for profit. Getting killmails, making a statement, manipulating the markets, collecting tears/threats are all reasons why we gank. But if you'd like to know arguably the most important reason, it would be because this is our way of taking vengeance against the people who are responsible for this game being dumbed down and casualized.

So stop talking **** about it being profitable/unprofitable. Use one of the "other" motivations as a reason and just do it ffs.

I got a feeling I said something like, if ganking is fun, just say so and have done with it - oh, about 3 weeks ago!

Nah, we gotta trawl through 40 pages of watching grown men cry... men all the new guys used to look up to. Nope, all they see is lamenting and tear shedding from the "bad guys".

Goons gone soft. FA gone soft. You're all soft.

sad. really sad. I fear for Eve.

If 0.0 gone soft. What hope those poor pubbies from highsec?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#791 - 2012-10-08 06:17:23 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

I'm starting to wonder if the bears think that pvp is some kind of zero-sum game where the winner gets everything the other guy owns. It would explain many things. It would certainly explain why they can't grasp why losing an 80-million Tornado in exchange for making 20 million from loot and salvage is unprofitable.

Actually we can grasp it. We just can't figure why you'd want to "risk" so much for 20m?

You can make that in 20 minutes or less if you stayed "home".

Because we don't do things purely for profit. Getting killmails, making a statement, manipulating the markets, collecting tears/threats are all reasons why we gank. But if you'd like to know arguably the most important reason, it would be because this is our way of taking vengeance against the people who are responsible for this game being dumbed down and casualized.

So stop talking **** about it being profitable/unprofitable. Use one of the "other" motivations as a reason and just do it ffs.

I got a feeling I said something like, if ganking is fun, just say so and have done with it - oh, about 3 weeks ago!

Nah, we gotta trawl through 40 pages of watching grown men cry... men all the new guys used to look up to. Nope, all they see is lamenting and tear shedding from the "bad guys".

Goons gone soft. FA gone soft. You're all soft.

sad. really sad. I fear for Eve.

If 0.0 gone soft. What hope those poor pubbies from highsec?

I like how you conveniently get to tell people what not to bring up that you don't like and cannot really formulate an argument against.

You're doing well.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Pipa Porto
#792 - 2012-10-08 06:22:07 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
you don't understand what EVE is supposed to be. Your extreme views that EVE is supposed to be a place where high sec-pirates have free reign and share all advantages without penalties is as moronic as it is unsustainable.


Find where I said HS Piracy shouldn't have penalties. I'll wait. Quote and Link, please.

Quote:
You can't seem to comprehend that high-sec is supposed to be a place where people can play and be at the mercy of low-life douchebags who are looking to annoy anyone they possibly can.


I'm gonna assume you missed a "not" in there, because otherwise you're contradicting yourself mid paragraph.

Find where a CCP Employee has ever said that HS is meant to be safe. I'll wait. Quote and Link, please.

Quote:
The easymode piracy seal-clubbing days are over. The devs have corrected the issue fortunately. CCP has laid down how EVE is supposed to work and so your arguments of what you personally think EVE is supposed to be are both pointless and moronic. Now stfu and get back to your basement or find another game you don't feel the need to constantly cry about.


Oh, it's not what I personally think EVE is supposed to be.

“Eve is very dark,” confirms creative director Torfi Frans Ólafsson. “It’s harsh. It is supposed to be unforgiving. The original designers played a lot of Ultima Online, which was a fantastic sandbox game, and it allowed you to be very devious and very immoral in the way that you played. What they loved about it is that player killers, the griefers - people who just went around and killed other people - became so unpopular that other people banded together. Good started fighting evil, and without true evil you can’t have true good. So you had these bands of righteous people chasing player killers, and those player killers were the original Eve designers; they created a game about that mechanic.”

CCP Wrangler wrote:
EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.


It's what the guys who created EVE wanted it to be.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#793 - 2012-10-08 06:24:00 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
So stop talking **** about it being profitable/unprofitable. Use one of the "other" motivations as a reason and just do it ffs.

Because while the other motivators are really powerful, ganking is quickly becoming an activity that is financially impossible. We went from losing maybe 20-30 million per gank, to losing almost 100, if we do the pre-insurance-nerf Armageddon to post-insurance-nerf Tornado comparison. And that was pre-EHP buff. Now, it would take at least five of those ships to make a kill. Who knows how many it will take tomorrow? Would you say that those other reasons justify spending a billion ISK to take out a mining barge? Is that balance?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#794 - 2012-10-08 06:24:23 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
you don't understand what EVE is supposed to be. Your extreme views that EVE is supposed to be a place where high sec-pirates have free reign and share all advantages without penalties is as moronic as it is unsustainable.


Find where I said HS Piracy shouldn't have penalties. I'll wait. Quote and Link, please.

Quote:
You can't seem to comprehend that high-sec is supposed to be a place where people can play and be at the mercy of low-life douchebags who are looking to annoy anyone they possibly can.


I'm gonna assume you missed a "not" in there, because otherwise you're contradicting yourself mid paragraph.

Find where a CCP Employee has ever said that HS is meant to be safe. I'll wait. Quote and Link, please.

Quote:
The easymode piracy seal-clubbing days are over. The devs have corrected the issue fortunately. CCP has laid down how EVE is supposed to work and so your arguments of what you personally think EVE is supposed to be are both pointless and moronic. Now stfu and get back to your basement or find another game you don't feel the need to constantly cry about.


Oh, it's not what I personally think EVE is supposed to be.

“Eve is very dark,” confirms creative director Torfi Frans Ólafsson. “It’s harsh. It is supposed to be unforgiving. The original designers played a lot of Ultima Online, which was a fantastic sandbox game, and it allowed you to be very devious and very immoral in the way that you played. What they loved about it is that player killers, the griefers - people who just went around and killed other people - became so unpopular that other people banded together. Good started fighting evil, and without true evil you can’t have true good. So you had these bands of righteous people chasing player killers, and those player killers were the original Eve designers; they created a game about that mechanic.”

CCP Wrangler wrote:
EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.


It's what the guys who created EVE wanted it to be.

Let's hope it still is.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#795 - 2012-10-08 06:24:25 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:

So stop talking **** about it being profitable/unprofitable. Use one of the "other" motivations as a reason and just do it ffs.

I got a feeling I said something like, if ganking is fun, just say so and have done with it - oh, about 3 weeks ago!

Nah, we gotta trawl through 40 pages of watching grown men cry... men all the new guys used to look up to. Nope, all they see is lamenting and tear shedding from the "bad guys".

Goons gone soft. FA gone soft. You're all soft.

sad. really sad. I fear for Eve.

If 0.0 gone soft. What hope those poor pubbies from highsec?



The changes mean that it is not possible to profitably gank macks so it is impossible to adapt. It also means that the skiff is rendered useless and the hulk shunned due to its tank making it profitable to gank if no tank is fitted. The macks invulnerability also means that mining bots are thriving which has had a disasterous impact on ice prices and has stalled mineral price growth as the markets get flooded with minerals. The sudden arrival of hundreds of bots has also forced up the price of plex which is hurting everyone who uses them. The barge update has also failed in its main goal of getting all of the barges roles to play.

I see that I am going to have to post this every two pages because for some reason people seem unable to remember important little details, much like in the HML changes thread.
Pipa Porto
#796 - 2012-10-08 06:25:36 UTC
Matriarch Prime wrote:
So let me get this strait? Griefers go out and gank a bunch of miners. Say they should adapt and tank up. While they themselves aren't subject to the same expectation, and then when CCP evens the playing field. Instead of taking their own advice, "adapt", they pour into the forums and qq in thier own turn, all while saying that it was miner qq that 'casue the problem.

Here's an alternative. If there had been no problem with miners being mass ganked in the first place, there wouldn't have been a miner buff and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

There's plenty of opportunities out there without your precious miner loot pinata. I'm sure, being so smart and adaptable as you are, that you can manage.

This is 'cause and effect. Butterflies, hurricanes and all that jazz.

Buck up, soldier.


You're skipping right over the part where the Miners never bothered to adapt, and the part where there have been 20+ nerfs to ganking since EVE was released and Gankers adapted everysingletime. Ever heard of the straw that broke the Camel's back?

Once again, the only reason it was profitable to gank Miners was because they could not be bothered to protect themselves at all.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#797 - 2012-10-08 06:26:30 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

I like how you conveniently get to tell people what not to bring up that you don't like and cannot really formulate an argument against.

You're doing well.

Darth, join a highsec mining corp and gank ém from within. Absolutely FREE kills. 100% profit - NO lost ship. Few alts. Keep on it. You'll make a bloody fortune.

Now MUTLIPLY that by 10,000, 20,000 - whatever.

THAT'S adapting.


(ofc, not wanting to be roflstomped on this - I've been away - I'm assuming corp kills still legal?)

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
The Slayer
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#798 - 2012-10-08 06:29:59 UTC
Wait are people SERIOUSLY complaining that its too hard to gank profitably in EVE? Are you... are you even playing the same GAME as me? What is wrong with you idiots that you cannot figure out how to gank and make money, it is literally the simplest thing to do in this game.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#799 - 2012-10-08 06:30:05 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Quote:
The easymode piracy seal-clubbing days are over. The devs have corrected the issue fortunately. CCP has laid down how EVE is supposed to work and so your arguments of what you personally think EVE is supposed to be are both pointless and moronic. Now stfu and get back to your basement or find another game you don't feel the need to constantly cry about.


Oh, it's not what I personally think EVE is supposed to be.

“Eve is very dark,” confirms creative director Torfi Frans Ólafsson. “It’s harsh. It is supposed to be unforgiving. The original designers played a lot of Ultima Online, which was a fantastic sandbox game, and it allowed you to be very devious and very immoral in the way that you played. What they loved about it is that player killers, the griefers - people who just went around and killed other people - became so unpopular that other people banded together. Good started fighting evil, and without true evil you can’t have true good. So you had these bands of righteous people chasing player killers, and those player killers were the original Eve designers; they created a game about that mechanic.”

CCP Wrangler wrote:
EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.


It's what the guys who created EVE wanted it to be.

Let's hope it still is.

Do those people still even work here? We have Greyscale and Soundwave now. They're here to save our souls and lift our spirits from the rotten pits of depravity.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#800 - 2012-10-08 06:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Touval Lysander wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

I like how you conveniently get to tell people what not to bring up that you don't like and cannot really formulate an argument against.

You're doing well.

Darth, join a highsec mining corp and gank ém from within. Absolutely FREE kills. 100% profit - NO lost ship. Few alts. Keep on it. You'll make a bloody fortune.

Now MUTLIPLY that by 10,000, 20,000 - whatever.

THAT'S adapting.

(ofc, not wanting to be roflstomped on this - I've been away - I'm assuming corp kills still legal?)


Post with your main so miners know who to thank for plummeting ice prices and stalled mat prices.

I mean we can do this all day.

But you make a good point. I freely admit the new bounty system adds a layer of depth to this puzzle that may wind up actually being a stealth-buff to ganking miners.

Time will tell.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom