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Tech 2 Weapons

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Nrazza
Liquid Words
#1 - 2012-10-06 15:25:52 UTC
Hail does Exp/Kin which is good Angel Cartel which i rarely ever fight. So i almost never get a chance to use T2 ammo. Should i move to an area that fights Angel Cartel a lot or can i use T2 on enemies weak to thermal and still have good completion times?

If not doesn't that make T2 Lasers/Projectile/Hybrids useless depending on the area you might be doing missions in?

Who else is weak to Exp/Kin damage?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2012-10-06 15:30:35 UTC
T2 ammo is hardly the only useful thing about T2 weapons. Spec skills are a big deal.

Besides which, Hail isn't even all that great for missions. Barrage on the other hand....
Nrazza
Liquid Words
#3 - 2012-10-06 15:40:32 UTC
I agree Barrage is Incredible for the distance it has even more so with Vargur. But is it still incredible against Rogue Drones or would Proton be better? I labeled the thread wrong i am referring only to the ammo in this case. Hail/Barrage are they better then the actually damage the enemy is weak to?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#4 - 2012-10-06 16:16:36 UTC
In almost all cases matching damage type to your enemy is the best option. Drones, BR, and Sansha get EMP. Serpentis, Guristas, EOM, and mercenaries get phased plasma. Angels get fusion. Barrage is there to extend your range when that's relevant. Hail L in missions... just doesn't come up.
Marcus Gideon
Triglavian Assembly
#5 - 2012-10-06 19:01:40 UTC
The secret of T2 guns isn't that suddenly you can use T2 ammo...

Sure, the ammo is nice to have in some situations.

The secret is, your skill training factors into base damage, even with plain ammo.

Just a quick doodle in EFT shows a Rifter with 200mm Scout ACs does about 81 dps and 224 volley shooting EMP ammo.

That's a blank fitting, no extra mods, just some guns.

Same blank fit, using 200mm T2 ACs and plain EMP ammo, does 89 dps and 247 volley. That's 8 dps just from having T2 small ACs trained up.

Now take a blank Maelstrom with 800mm Scout ACs. 412 dps / 1785 volley with plain EMP.

800mm T2 ACs... 453 / 1964.

If you can fit T2 guns, use them. They'll only make things die faster =)
Nrazza
Liquid Words
#6 - 2012-10-06 21:06:51 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
In almost all cases matching damage type to your enemy is the best option. Drones, BR, and Sansha get EMP. Serpentis, Guristas, EOM, and mercenaries get phased plasma. Angels get fusion. Barrage is there to extend your range when that's relevant. Hail L in missions... just doesn't come up.


Since Hail does more damage then Fusion wouldnt that be a better choice? Thats mostly what i use it for. Anything that is weak to exp damage. Am i doing it wrong?
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#7 - 2012-10-06 22:36:04 UTC
Generally T2 ammo is not very isk efficient in missions. Faction ammo is usually better if you want to get that extra dps. Only exception to this would probably be Scorch, but laser crystals last very long as well. It's your choice if you want to burn through isk to get slightly better mission times though.

The T2 ammo types don't have much use in missions, but in PvP it can be pretty handy.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#8 - 2012-10-07 04:14:44 UTC
Nrazza wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
In almost all cases matching damage type to your enemy is the best option. Drones, BR, and Sansha get EMP. Serpentis, Guristas, EOM, and mercenaries get phased plasma. Angels get fusion. Barrage is there to extend your range when that's relevant. Hail L in missions... just doesn't come up.


Since Hail does more damage then Fusion wouldnt that be a better choice? Thats mostly what i use it for. Anything that is weak to exp damage. Am i doing it wrong?


Maybe. If you can control transversal and range, Hail will put out more damage than RF Fusion under about 25km (this and all numbers are based on my mission Mach fit which features 3x TE IIs, 3x RF gyros, and 1 T2 gyro). It maintains that dominance down to about 12km where RF Fusion takes over again due to transversal. Oh, and target is a BS; if you drop ship sizes transversal plays a much larger role and Hail doesn't look as good.

So what does that mean in practical terms? If you can keep target BSs in that range band (which would be much narrower without the Mach's falloff bonus and the three TEs) then Hail wins. Anything outside of that, and most sub-BSs inside that, Hail loses to RF Fusion.

In either case, you're spewing money out of your guns. This isn't the end of the world and it does end up being more efficient than using T1 Fusion -- provided you have a good supply. When I was missioning the issue I ran in to is that keeping RF ammo stocked in sufficient quantity was actually a challenge and I ended up mostly using T1 (and Barrage, but that's for range and not damage type or raw damage). Obviously a Vargur wouldn't have quite the same ammo consumption needs that a Machariel does and so it ends up being rather dependent on specific fits.

In general I'd caution against always grabbing for increased damage T2 ammo. Applying that increased damage is actually rather difficult and quite often not worthwhile in a missioning context (where you're more interested in blatting while getting to a gate or aligning out).
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-10-07 04:32:32 UTC
Marcus Gideon wrote:
The secret of T2 guns isn't that suddenly you can use T2 ammo...



Allthou for pulse lasers and torpedoes having T2 ammo is mandatory ... otherwise both will suck hard.
Marcus Gideon
Triglavian Assembly
#10 - 2012-10-07 05:57:25 UTC
Cedo Nulli wrote:
Marcus Gideon wrote:
The secret of T2 guns isn't that suddenly you can use T2 ammo...



Although for pulse lasers and torpedoes having T2 ammo is mandatory ... otherwise both will suck hard.

Eh, kinda...

I agree, Scorch is awesome. But I rarely resort to Conflag in most situations. IN Multi works fine most of the time, and in fact I tend to use plain Multi as often so I don't have to restock crystals.

The usefulness of T2 ammo, as with everything else in Eve, "it depends" on the situation.

Cruising around in my Dram, looking for a fight, I carry a small supply of Hail and Barrage. But I also carry some Fusion, maybe some EMP and PP as well.

Particularly when you're talking about Proj weapons, the bullets really don't have a drastic difference as far as "dps" is concerned. It's the 31 flavors of destruction you get to choose from.

"Should" you use Hail for all those mission rats, when it seems they're weaker to another flavor?

Give it a try... load up some Fusion and take a few shots. Then reload PP. Then reload Hail. =)