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New Dev Blog: ME SQUASH BUG: Improving the EVE experience

First post
Author
Solo Drakban
Goosefleet
Gooseflock Featheration
#61 - 2011-10-17 16:54:22 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
That being said, it's unfortunate that we have to work in such an environment of paranoia where even a beneficial crash reporting tool could be perceived as having an evil ulterior motive.


I don't necessarily believe that CCP has an ulterior motive or that they are going to be malicious with the tool. I simply like to review what data is being presented from my computer, especially when it has the possibility of leaking information, not unintentionally, due to a missed flag.

David Carel
SWAT Team Sales Consultants
#62 - 2011-10-17 16:58:07 UTC  |  Edited by: David Carel
KFenn wrote:
CCP Redundancy wrote:
When clients stop responding but don't close, that's probably a deadlock or an infinite loop. Neither of these counts as a crash, even if they are sucky.


Replace iteration with recursion. Infinite loops cause StackOverflowExceptions. Win.

(In all honesty don't do that.)


No, iterations do not cause a stack overflow per se.
In Python, recursions cause a "RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded" but Python does not have a StackOverflowException, .NET does.
In fact, you cannot cause a stack overflow in Python unless you access the language using its C API.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2011-10-17 16:59:47 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
That being said, it's unfortunate that we have to work in such an environment of paranoia where even a beneficial crash reporting tool could be perceived as having an evil ulterior motive.


I work with confidential information, and occasionally I work from home. It's necessary for me to be able to be sure that no confidential information is transmitted along with an eve crash report due to it being miscoded.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

KFenn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2011-10-17 17:00:23 UTC  |  Edited by: KFenn
David Carel wrote:
KFenn wrote:
CCP Redundancy wrote:
When clients stop responding but don't close, that's probably a deadlock or an infinite loop. Neither of these counts as a crash, even if they are sucky.


Replace iteration with recursion. Infinite loops cause StackOverflowExceptions. Win.

(In all honesty don't do that.)


No, iterations do not cause a stack overflow per se.
In Python, recursions cause a "RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded" but Python does not have a StackOverflowException, .NET does.
In fact, you cannot cause a stack overflow in Python unless you access the language using its C API.


'Maximum recursion depth' still likely means the same thing - you've run out of space on the stack with which to store the current runtime context before the method call. Anyway, they said a lot of the new code was C++.

My point was, using recursion causes some form of Exception to be thrown, whereas iteration doesn't.

Also, It wasn't a serious suggestion ;)

Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade

Flamehaired Death
Doomheim
#65 - 2011-10-17 17:03:14 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Addergebroed wrote:
CCP Redundancy wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Solo Drakban makes a good point - is mandatory reporting being patched out before release, or in winter expansion 1.1


In the short term, if you're worried about this feature then the best workaround would be to block your computer from accessing http://crashes.eveonline.com

This won't cause any issues with Eve, but it will mean that we won't be able to see and fix your crashes.


Why on earth would you not want to help CCP to fix crashes?


Like Solo, I prefer to know what information is being collected from my computer before approving it.



You do realize that your computer already sends an endless stream of data to CCP that you are not pre-approving. That is the command stream. And if CCP was out to hijack your disk content, they could easily slip/mix that data into the command stream.
Granted it would take forever at low rates that did not raise your suspicion but then again you are logged on forever.

Or do you use a laptop with Wire Shark to continuously monitor EVE's outgoing data stream? How do you know that the garbage characters aren't your data going out in encrypted format?

Frankly setting your WIndows or Macfile system security up right is your best way of protecting user data not stored in EVE directories. Oh you can also encrypt your private data too. But keep in mind you can lose it too if the password data gets corrupted and is not saved in regular backups (i.e. nobody can break encryption easily for unknown keys - no even you). So before encrypting ask yourself if its better to lose your data should something go wrong. Or is that worse than someone else stealing it?
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#66 - 2011-10-17 17:04:07 UTC
Windet is coming.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Bromothymol
Old 'n Cranky
#67 - 2011-10-17 17:04:34 UTC
There is a history of corporate interests including potentially damaging/malicious code in their official releases. Sony's rootkit DRM software and Realplayer's introduction of Spyware to the world come immediately to mind.

Keeping CCP's rather rough customer relations over the past year or so in mind, I think it's only reasonable that people might be hesitant to allow CCP to record information from their computer without first reviewing it. That the response here was an immediate "yes" is an encouraging sign.
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#68 - 2011-10-17 17:06:50 UTC
Phantom Slave wrote:
Addergebroed wrote:
Why on earth would you not want to help CCP to fix crashes?


Some people aren't comfortable with information leaving their computer and going to somebody else when it has information about said computer. Privacy issues and all.



Course, if CCP really wanted to, they could just be uploading everything you have in an encrypted form. Just like any other software on your PC could. Edging into paranoia there.

Then there's people running bots, who want to make sure that CCP don't see the bot hooked into their code Blink
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2011-10-17 17:07:16 UTC
Flamehaired Death wrote:

You do realize that your computer already sends an endless stream of data to CCP that you are not pre-approving. That is the command stream. And if CCP was out to hijack your disk content, they could easily slip/mix that data into the command stream.
Granted it would take forever at low rates that did not raise your suspicion but then again you are logged on forever.


I am not perticularly concerned about CCP attempting to spy on me. I am, like Solo Drakban, concerned that a misconfigured crash report could draw more data than it was intended to, and unfortunately I'm required to care about that sort of thing.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2011-10-17 17:15:02 UTC
Solo Drakban wrote:
Bagehi wrote:
Will this report when the entire computer hangs up and becomes unresponsive and needs a reboot? I had one last week while playing Eve. I was going to write a bug report but I couldn't think of anything out of the ordinary that was happening when it crashed like that. CPU, GPU, case temps within norm...



If your entire system freezes it won't be possible for the bug reporting mechanism to fire, so, no.

Though in general a complete system lock like this is rarely ever the fault of an application, but an indication of a lower-level issue with your system (faulty drivers, bad power, flakey RAM, RF interference, etc).



You left our solar flares.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement

sokkke
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2011-10-17 17:15:54 UTC
I got something that would improve my xp reading the Dev Blog Posts A LOT.

Change the background image so the contrast between text and background isn't messed up in every line in the first
4 paragraphs (in the current post)

I always see myself twitching and sometimes even copying the text to a editor for un-annoyed reading.
.. after hitting command+ so the font size get's readable (to bad i cant do that in-game)

http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/10/07/16-pixels-body-copy-anything-less-costly-mistake/
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#72 - 2011-10-17 17:16:37 UTC
I think I'm going to be using the character recustomiser alot tomorrow. And viewing NeX items. Should CTD myself repeatedly in short order. Big smile

Good blog and looking forwards to the results of CCP coders HTFU'ing to crush many, many crash bugs.

http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/

The Jotunn Risi are now recruiting, Brutor ancestry required in order to best represent the Brutor interest.  Join channel JORIS to learn more!

Dalmont Delantee
Gecko Corp
#73 - 2011-10-17 17:28:42 UTC
Solo Drakban wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Addergebroed wrote:
CCP Redundancy wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Solo Drakban makes a good point - is mandatory reporting being patched out before release, or in winter expansion 1.1


In the short term, if you're worried about this feature then the best workaround would be to block your computer from accessing http://crashes.eveonline.com

This won't cause any issues with Eve, but it will mean that we won't be able to see and fix your crashes.


Why on earth would you not want to help CCP to fix crashes?


Like Solo, I prefer to know what information is being collected from my computer before approving it.



Indeed.


Don't worry ccp aren't worried about your goat pron and the fact you play hello kitty online at the same time as eve. The old adage of if you have nothing to hide with the eve client why worry. Plus if there is no personal infp they won't know about your bots and python injections :-p
EnderCapitalG
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#74 - 2011-10-17 17:33:58 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
Solo Drakban wrote:
Bagehi wrote:
Will this report when the entire computer hangs up and becomes unresponsive and needs a reboot? I had one last week while playing Eve. I was going to write a bug report but I couldn't think of anything out of the ordinary that was happening when it crashed like that. CPU, GPU, case temps within norm...



If your entire system freezes it won't be possible for the bug reporting mechanism to fire, so, no.

Though in general a complete system lock like this is rarely ever the fault of an application, but an indication of a lower-level issue with your system (faulty drivers, bad power, flakey RAM, RF interference, etc).



You left our solar flares.


That would be RF Interference. Thanks for playing.
Nonnori Ikkala
Love for You
#75 - 2011-10-17 17:39:50 UTC
I like the blog! I like the improvements! I like the quick response and promise of action for those who want to opt-out! I look forward to automatically submitting crash reports from my Mac!

I also look forward hopefully to eventual expansions of the feature to not-only-crashes, e.g.: "Hm, my pilot's face is bright blue, click 'Submit Log and Screenshot of Bug,'" kind of thing.
VInanath Diesel
Freedom of Choice
#76 - 2011-10-17 17:40:23 UTC
Excellent Blog CCP Redundancy. Putting away my can of RAID...and remember first tell them what you're going to say, then tell them, then tell them what you just said. Big smile
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2011-10-17 17:42:05 UTC
Very nice... fix drones too - thank you.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2011-10-17 17:48:47 UTC
I was hoping for the hybrids announcement. Oh well =(

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Sirane Elrek
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2011-10-17 18:04:12 UTC
Dalmont Delantee wrote:
The old adage of if you have nothing to hide with the eve client why worry.

I want to quash this argument right at the beginning. Everybody has something to hide. Maybe not in the EVE client, but that's why people want to check what data is actually being transmitted. It's not your business to know whether I have a porn site open in my browser, or if I'm watching a live stream of Bill O'Reilly.
bp920091
Black Aces
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2011-10-17 18:21:52 UTC
See, these are the kind of devblogs that players want (well, no new content in this (content meaning new shiny stuff that shoots/get shot in game), but it shows that you ARE trying to make EVE a less buggy place, rather than just using eve as a cash cow to build WoD and Dust 514)

More of these are GREATLY appreciated.

Keep up the good work, one alt account is resubscribed (well, for that and because i suddenly need to use covert cynos, and noone else that i know can (cyno V is a LONG skill)