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Jump Freighters are overpowered

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Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#81 - 2011-10-17 00:19:21 UTC
Deyo wrote:
Let me see if i got this correctly. CCP decided to build a shopping mall over you playground and you want to kick someone else sand castle for that?



Quoted for truth, and thread bumped for great justice and honour!

Please give up now, OP, whilst you can still do so in a reasonably dignified manner.

Ni.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#82 - 2011-10-17 00:28:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyrrashae
Centra Spike wrote:


No, my entire problem here is that the step up in logistical capability from the Freighter to the Jump Freighter is unbalanced. I chose to post this thread during the on-going supercapital nerf because it would spark discussion.



No, it's not: It loses almost 70% of it's cargo-capacity to make up for its' jumping ability, and the EHP gain over the T I freighter is not enough to prevent 30 gank-fitted 1400mm Arty-Maels from one- or two-shotting its' ass.

A JF is not in any way the equivalent of an SC just because you pick an entirely arbitrary criterion to try and convince others that its' equivalently overpowered.

False equivalence fallacy + appeals to emotion, L2argue...

Ni.
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#83 - 2011-10-17 02:03:17 UTC
they don't fit much, the cost a fortune, the consume massive amounts of fuel, and they don't jump far. They are actually quite nice and very useful, are very different from normal freighters in terms of the load they carry. . .

JFs are fine.
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#84 - 2011-10-17 03:45:04 UTC
steave435 wrote:
You mean like massively improved ability to perform their role compared to their standard capital version combined with increased EHP and MUCH higher cost? Yeah, totally arbitrary.

This is hilarious coming from somebody in PL.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2011-10-17 09:06:39 UTC
all yall toastin in a troll bread
Sunviking
Doomheim
#86 - 2011-10-17 09:31:52 UTC
Hi,

I disagree with the OP.

Jump Freighters are not overpowered - there is nothing to stop one getting popped before it aligns to warp to the gate to highsec.

Quite honestly, it is one of the only things that enables small alliances to maintain a foothold in nullsec.

If you nerf Jump Freighters, you merely slow down trade in EVE, increasing the cost of everything.

Just because a bunch of pirates and big alliances don't like the fact it gives people a good chance to avoid getting killed, doesn't mean they should be nerfed. Their cost more than justifies their capabilities.

If Jump Freighters get nerfed, then we may as well get rid of T3 Interdiction Nullifier subsystems and Covops Cloaking Devices, for the same reason.

- Sun
Mona X
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#87 - 2011-10-17 14:19:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mona X
Headerman wrote:
Hmmm....
JFs are overpowered because "They do not usually have a support fleet".


Fine then. Remove their ability to use drones and lower their dronebay, so they could carry max 30 fighters or fighter bombers... Lol

To the OP: If you want to escort freighters fron highsec to null, you're free to do so, butdon't make MY life miserable just because you want that.

I need new signature.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2011-10-17 16:47:18 UTC
Buff the JF, give it 100x the range and 1/10 the current fuel cost. Increase the hitpoints by a factor of 20 and all resists get bumped up to 99% across the board. Increase the size of the cargo bay to that of standard freighters and decrease the align time so its equal to a Pod as well as 100% immunity to EWAR and built in interdiction nullifier ability + a signature so tiney it takes a HIC an hour to lock it. It also gets 1 highslot for a covert ops cloak and a bonus to fitting, along with the current dronebay size of a SC before its nerfed. Sounds just about right, to **** off the OP with an unkillable target.

And buff super caps even more over their current stards, forget the nerfs. The forum rebals whine to much, but more tears brings the world closer to a cure for cancer( and ending hunger in third world, Sorry Mr. Chuck Norris no Nobel Prize for you) and I am tired of hearing "X is overpowered, nerf it cause its too hard!", titans don't need 2 meter thermal vents to give them a weakness you just need to grow some balls, nut off in your hand, and get over it as its just a game.
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#89 - 2011-10-17 20:38:26 UTC
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
they don't fit much, the cost a fortune, the consume massive amounts of fuel, and they don't jump far. They are actually quite nice and very useful, are very different from normal freighters in terms of the load they carry. . .

JFs are fine.


My Avatar doesn't fit much, costs a fortune, consumes 50,000 topes when I DD something, doesn't jump very far. It's actually quite nice and very useful and is very different from normal capitals in terms of what it does in combat.

But they are taking away my drones.


Sunviking wrote:
Hi,

I disagree with the OP.

Jump Freighters are not overpowered - there is nothing to stop one getting popped before it aligns to warp to the gate to highsec.

Quite honestly, it is one of the only things that enables small alliances to maintain a foothold in nullsec.

If you nerf Jump Freighters, you merely slow down trade in EVE, increasing the cost of everything.

Just because a bunch of pirates and big alliances don't like the fact it gives people a good chance to avoid getting killed, doesn't mean they should be nerfed. Their cost more than justifies their capabilities.

If Jump Freighters get nerfed, then we may as well get rid of T3 Interdiction Nullifier subsystems and Covops Cloaking Devices, for the same reason.

- Sun


Assuming you have a fleet ready and waiting and know where the JF is going to show up, then, yes, you can maybe kill it. But if it jumps to docking range on a station, it will dock right after session change.

JFs also allow large alliances to maintain a foothold in nullsec.

Cost should never be a justification for a ships capability.

The nullifier and cloak don't combine with game mechanics to make ships that use them invulnerable as with jump drive and docking range cynos.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2011-10-17 20:47:49 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:


Cost should never be a justification for a ships capability.




thats so wrong i dont even know where to start.

yes most people arent going to spend large amounts of money for a ship that doesnt do anything but at the same time no one is going to sell a ship for peanuts when it is useful. basically what im trying to say is that the two go hand in hand the capability is justified by the cost (ie only those that work for it should have it) and the cost is justified by the capability (yes you have to really work for it but then you get rewarded)

so stop arguing cost because here is the thing it is as big a factor in this game as anything else.

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#91 - 2011-10-17 21:03:40 UTC
Tasiv Deka wrote:
Centra Spike wrote:


Cost should never be a justification for a ships capability.




thats so wrong i dont even know where to start.

yes most people arent going to spend large amounts of money for a ship that doesnt do anything but at the same time no one is going to sell a ship for peanuts when it is useful. basically what im trying to say is that the two go hand in hand the capability is justified by the cost (ie only those that work for it should have it) and the cost is justified by the capability (yes you have to really work for it but then you get rewarded)

so stop arguing cost because here is the thing it is as big a factor in this game as anything else.


So my 100b ISK Avatar should be able to own ~300 350m battleships solo, right?

Follow us @PLIRC!
Emizeko Chai
Freight Club
#92 - 2011-10-18 00:28:19 UTC
I find this thread very entertaining. Keep posting, please.
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#93 - 2011-10-18 01:44:35 UTC
Emizeko Chai wrote:
I find this thread very entertaining. Keep posting, please.

You should tell Centra how you guys kill JFs so he can stop feeling so ineffectual.
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#94 - 2011-10-18 03:45:46 UTC
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Emizeko Chai wrote:
I find this thread very entertaining. Keep posting, please.

You should tell Centra how you guys kill JFs so he can stop feeling so ineffectual.


We will it. Well, that, and the small shrine to xMartok next to my desk might have something to do with it. It's total metagaming, I know.
Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#95 - 2011-10-19 03:59:04 UTC
OK. I've read a fair bit of this threadnoguht and I'm seeing a pattern here:

"Jump freighters are overpowered because they can jump from a station to a station, warp to a gate and jump, blah blah."

The issue here is not with jump freighters. It's with cyno's. What would happen if you did to cynos like they did to smartbombs? You could only light them say 10 km from a station's docking radius. Now dreads, carriers, and rorquals are going to start dying by the thousands as well. But this opens the "docking games" can of worms...why should it be possible to agress/use targetted modules within docking range? How about triage carriers must move 5km from the station to rep their buddies :)

And on the topic of "invulnerable logistics," take a look at blocade runners. Unless you're really unlucky, and the pirates have set up a bajillion cans aroudn a gate to decloak you, you're going to make it in low-sec and high-sec 100% of the time. I routinely transport billions of isk in a viator, during wars, through gate-camps, etc. Why should these ships be invulerable of jump freighers aren't?

And let's go a step further. Let's say freighters can't use jump bridges (either pos-based or titan-based), so they ahve to travel the low and null sec pipes to get places.

My point in all this is that if you start talking about a relatively minor issue (jump freighters) you need to consider ALL the connecting issues. Cynos and jump drives in particular, station docking, titan bridging, blocade runners, and other such issues are on the table as well.


Another thing: the comparision between supercapitals and jump freighters is biased and frankly unfair. Jump freighters can't hurt you when if the enemy cynos them on top of your fleet. They can't sit there and obliterate your entire fleet systematically while you barely whittle away at their EHP. Jump freighters are not supercaps. They are, at most, the capital version of freighters, same as the Rorqual is the capital version of the Orca.

They fill the role of skill and isk-intensive "safe" logistics. They can still die. You can bubble them as they try to warp to a gate, bump them off station before they can dock, alpha them, or simly get lucky when the cyno pilot screws up.

tl;dr - balance jump freighers ONLY by completely overhauling cynos and docking mechanics, for ALL ships.
Josefine Etrange
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2011-10-19 06:00:52 UTC
While I see the problem, there is a simple solution.

Empires start to get concerned about increasing capital activities at their boarders and start installing in every low sec system with a high sec gate Cynosural System Jammer.

Risk added, ship balanced. Fleet support needed.
Widemouth Deepthroat
Pink Sockers
#97 - 2011-10-19 06:21:07 UTC
I hope CCP comes through for us with JF nerfs (and further JB nerfs). It sounded like the nerfs had unanimous CSM support and I'd guess most people wouldn't mind some nerfs except those who own jump freighters and make their isk by seeding markets and making their alliance members pay through the nose for their goods.
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#98 - 2011-10-19 07:45:05 UTC
Jiska Ensa wrote:
OK. I've read a fair bit of this threadnoguht and I'm seeing a pattern here:

"Jump freighters are overpowered because they can jump from a station to a station, warp to a gate and jump, blah blah."

The issue here is not with jump freighters. It's with cyno's. What would happen if you did to cynos like they did to smartbombs? You could only light them say 10 km from a station's docking radius. Now dreads, carriers, and rorquals are going to start dying by the thousands as well. But this opens the "docking games" can of worms...why should it be possible to agress/use targetted modules within docking range? How about triage carriers must move 5km from the station to rep their buddies :)

And on the topic of "invulnerable logistics," take a look at blocade runners. Unless you're really unlucky, and the pirates have set up a bajillion cans aroudn a gate to decloak you, you're going to make it in low-sec and high-sec 100% of the time. I routinely transport billions of isk in a viator, during wars, through gate-camps, etc. Why should these ships be invulerable of jump freighers aren't?

And let's go a step further. Let's say freighters can't use jump bridges (either pos-based or titan-based), so they ahve to travel the low and null sec pipes to get places.

My point in all this is that if you start talking about a relatively minor issue (jump freighters) you need to consider ALL the connecting issues. Cynos and jump drives in particular, station docking, titan bridging, blocade runners, and other such issues are on the table as well.


Another thing: the comparision between supercapitals and jump freighters is biased and frankly unfair. Jump freighters can't hurt you when if the enemy cynos them on top of your fleet. They can't sit there and obliterate your entire fleet systematically while you barely whittle away at their EHP. Jump freighters are not supercaps. They are, at most, the capital version of freighters, same as the Rorqual is the capital version of the Orca.

They fill the role of skill and isk-intensive "safe" logistics. They can still die. You can bubble them as they try to warp to a gate, bump them off station before they can dock, alpha them, or simly get lucky when the cyno pilot screws up.

tl;dr - balance jump freighers ONLY by completely overhauling cynos and docking mechanics, for ALL ships.


I would welcome changes to lighting cyno fields within docking range of stations. Or maybe if you light it too close you just spawn further away, similar to the POS shield cyno change.

Blockade Runners are hard to kill, yes, but jumping through a gate and cloaking is no where near the same as jumping to a cyno in dock range.

I don't think it's an unfair comparison, in their role of logistics the JF is a supercapital. They move so much stuff with so little effort that disrupting an alliance's logistic capability is next to impossible.

Follow us @PLIRC!
thrulinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2011-10-19 13:13:59 UTC
Very interesting, but to the OP, here is the link to the ship you seem to not understand.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Anshar

See the pretty picture that show's the gold 2 in the upper left hand corner signifying it IS a T2 ship?

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Obelisk

See the pretty picture? The ships look exactly the same. A few of there stats are the exact same. Mass and Volume.

The developers of this game say this IS a T2 ship. Not a suppercap. Get over it.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#100 - 2011-10-19 15:32:10 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:
Blockade Runners are hard to kill, yes, but jumping through a gate and cloaking is no where near the same as jumping to a cyno in dock range.


how on earth could someone get a ship from within docking range to outside docking range in 30s

this is really a problem an Elite PvP alliance should be able to solve

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.