Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Dont you see how *you* are just doing the same? You say the HML Drake is OP on range, so next to no one uses other medium weapon ranged ships. But you dont say the HAM Drake is UP, coz nearly no one uses it over a AC Cane or Pulse Harbi. Still this is true: the Drake is the best ranged vessel in tier II BCs. But its also the worst brawler of the tier II BCs. So all of those ships have a role atm. Drake is king in applied DPS in 35-70 km range. But before and afterwards it is clearly weaker than the others. It is so much weaker than the others that you actually see 2-3 times as many Hurricanes in lowsec compared to Drakes! Do you think lowsec pilots are all just dumb and have no skills, so they dont use the best ship? In my experience its the other way round - people in lowsec know much more about PvP than most others. And they know especially well, that PvP is more than crunching numbers in EFT: DPS/range/EHP is all you guys talk about. You forget agility, speed, utility slots, Drone-abilities, fitting variation, speed of DPS application ... and many others more. So thats why you miss how the game is actually played.

short summary:

What you (and others) want to do is this:

you want to remove Drakes role of being stronger in this engagement range - it should be "in line" with the rest.

What you (and others) fail to see is:

it will not have a role then anymore. It has its role because it is usable with success in a certain range. If it is no longer better there, but still worse in other ranges, why should one take it? Especially considering the fact this certain role is none, which is favoured by current meta .. apart from in nullsec.




Short answers: about the DPS - you are plain wrong. Go to EFT and check it out, Drake will be 1/3rd behind in DPS.Further more, tracking IS an issue, but not to a degree one cant solve it (mixed fleets ftw, if you dont have tackle to slow em down you wont kill em anyway).



I absolutely have no clue what you want to tell us with that? And I always make clear PvE is not the way to balance things. In opposite its the Drake-haters who say its OP in PvE. I think though you can see some things in PvE, as a trend. And I personally dont wonder its the Machariel and Vargur which are so OP there.

You are welcome to not post anymore if you feel better then.

There will be no TE/TC changes now. If HAMs will be better then or not we will see. People like me are concerned about HML nerfs because atm (!) there is no other useful PvP missile system above frig size. If (and only then!) PvP is possible with success in Caldari ships using Torps, HAMs and CMs, I will be the first one to sign HMLs should be absolutely in line with their medium turret long range cousins. Until then I am not. Simply because there is no other option, which is bad IMO. :)



Not true for high velocity small signature targets. Everything else has to be checked once the actual numbers are there.



And they are outdpsd in other areas, AND they are by no means a 1on1 killer AND they are used only because HAMs suck so much. I agree with you that in applied DPS over range (after flight time, though) HML are good. But thats the only thing they can do, so shouldnt they be good at it? :) They cant hit out to falloffs coz there is none, they cant apply insta DPS, and they cant change to more DPS close range.




I didnt say HML should be nerfed because CM are broken. I said, HML *seem* to be broken, because their natural counter is broken. If Raven/Cruise would work like they should, you could counter any ranged Drake easily with CM. And counter the Raven/CM with short range DPS (of nearly any class), and counter the short range DPS in a medium range of maybe 50km with Drakes again. The point which makes HML to look like they are OP is the absence of other viable and working PvP missile systems.

In addition thats also why they are used by so many Caldari - they have no other chance to do above frig size missile PvP if they dont use HML.



Try to fly fast shorter than 20km if your enemy is not dumb and AFK .. I beg you, please ... thats so funny I nearly spilled my coffee :) I bet you didnt mean that tackled moon-size signatured Drake, when you talked about that fast moving target?

Once in the past there was a thingin United States. It called "Pay as you go" and was about covering backend costs, if you come with an idea.

There is an idea - nerf HML. As HML range is the main ability for Drake\Tengu\NightHawk\Cerberus , lets take one main ability from every tier2 BC.
I'll start with hurricane: add speed and agility penalty to t2 ammo.

Okay, then just take some cpu from Drake, so it cannot fir HML without co-cpu. Not to mention you already cannot fir HAM without RCU.

If it comes to main advantages in weapon systems, so...

Limit dronebay on myrm or replace current drone bonus with "Drones control range bonus" .

Harbinger is non-issue, it's tier1, so compare it with tier1.

Prophecy: umm.... seems fine, how about to add 10 seconds timer to change ammo ?

this is sarcasm post, dont take it serious, i just want ccp to show their real motives for HML nerf. How you weight the factors? what is OP and what is not? Show us the numbers!

Harbinger is not tier 1. But about everything else:

- when it comes to turrets , people seem to be willing to accept there has to be one system which is best at certain things. For example no one complains about ACs being OP in some things or Arty in other things to the same degree as they complain about HML. For turrets you get statements like "one has to be the best, and then just adapt (=crosstrain) or die".

For HML however people say "HML are OP, they have to be brought back into line!!" ... I tell you something: the reason why many didnt crosstrain for them is because they are NOT OP. They are useful in a certain way, and the only useful missile system in small gangs/roams/fleets at ALL atm (above frigs, again ..). But they are not OP except being so cheap to use and easy to train for null sec fleets. Thats why Canes outnumber Drakes by 2 or 3 in lowsec (something ANY skilled PvP player in lowsec will confirm!). And you simply dont see any other above frig missile PvP except with HML. HAMs are non existent, Torps are used in bombers (frig size ship) and maybe in an occasional Neut-Torp-Phoon, but not in Caldari hulls, CM are completely broken. Fix those to be in line with their turret brothers, and we will all agree to bring HML in line with med turrets. Until then - adapt or die. Or fix those OP turrets too :)

And to that guy who said something about me trashing " citation to eve-kill statistics" : read what has been explained about eve-kill. The numbers there are not representative, because the way they are made will give disproportional bigger numbers for bigger fleets. Note the Zealot on rank 2, and ask yourself how many Zealots you see do PvP in your environment normally. I dont say there are none. But in my experience Zealots are much less used in lowsec than many other ships, same in highsec. But in nullsec they are a viable counter for Drakeblobs, so a fight of Drakeblobs and Zealots in nullsec is a very viable explanation for those numbers.

Fix other missile systems and you will see a drastic change to HML/Drake use, because people have then the ability to really choose something: go on close range roam with your friends Cane in your HAM/Drake, or do nice fleet ranged DPS with a Raven, or do in your face torp stuff.. the Raven will be used then in PvP and it will render the Drake obsolete in nullsec, and in lowsec the Drake is not overpowered at all. Its balanced in imbalance - better at some things, and worse in other. Thats why lowsec is not Drakespace, but Canespace, if you want to name it after the most used ship ....

Best regards.

Okay, here are the numbers. Since the topic is about weapon systems, compare naked ships with only t2 guns set at their maximum range. All BCs got Warden II, to keep the line of firing at around 60km. Drake charged with Nova Fury HML due to fact that we are comparing weapons system, not a single bonus of ship. Myrm have 3x Warden II as it's 50/50 guns-drones platform

Drake(HML): 368 DPS - 75km, about 50% 55% CPU left and 40% PG left
Hurricane(720mm): 213 DPS - 54+21km, a lot of CPU left, about 15% of PG left
Prophecy(HBL): 171.5DPS - 54+10km, 60% CPU left, less than 10% PG left.
Myrmydon(250mm+WardenII): 322DPS - 64.8+15km. 65% CPU left, 20% PG left

Ok, what now?

Drake and Myrmydon are 2 highest DPS available at 60km in tier2 BC class, but they suffer counterparts that do not touch other 2. I do not touch speed, agility etc as these affect every weapon system:

1. Missiles have a flight time and have a risk of not hitting target at all if distance grows while they fly
2. DPS can be lowered by using defenders, and there are plenty of ships with utility high with launcher.
3. Drones can be shot and stop making damage.
4. SmartBombs, save from both.

---

Not about weapons:
Take also into account, that Drake and Myrm are 2 slowest in their class. And this is fine, because they can hit far but once caught, they can not escape.

Actually I said the Myrmidon is probably the best in a close-range 1v1, so you're wrong again.

If you were ever serious about your challenge you'd have been in touch with a time and place. You haven't. As I said, all talk and no trousers.

Goodbye. Feel free to carry on being bad.

Thats what I found from you, sir, in this thread in regards of Myrm vs Drake. ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1974227#post1974227 ) So yes, I agree you said Myrm can win in one configuration.

thats my offer.

Here is your answer:



This means you were not willing to do that before Jav changes, means you are aware of current weakness of HAMs.

Instead of doing that you tried to derail things:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1989607#post1989607



So, sorry, I dont buy that stuff you say anymore. Everyone is free to judge himself.

Best regards.