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Ships & Modules

 
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The use of Reactive Armor Hardeners

First post
Author
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#41 - 2012-07-11 19:54:31 UTC
The idea of this module is you activate it and go cooking a dinner.
With Scripts and other things you could introduce some new module.

I actually liked the idea when you activate it and go cooking.
When you fight someone with ACs you have no idea (sometimes) what damage type he uses.
Since most of the people use ACs this module should be useful, in theory at least.

Whatever.

Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-07-12 01:37:31 UTC
I didn't know the letter "e" was so powerful.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#43 - 2012-07-18 00:45:50 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
it needs a t2 variant with 80% total resistance to spread around rather than 60%

otherwise its complete **** as t1 version



A module that potentially gives 80% unstacked resistance is far too powerful. Improved variants should have shorter cycle times (leading to quicker damage type adaptation)


ya and considering the fact that this current one is only as strong as a regular ass hardener.
take about 2 minutes to be fully res'ed properly (90% of the fights in this game are done in under 2 minutes)
takes up WAY to much cap.

it simply would be only FOOLISH to not use them in longer fights and besides buffer armor tanking has needed a revamp for god dam years

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#44 - 2012-07-18 14:50:55 UTC
Module is a good idea however it's rather pre nerfed sadly... For the module to be viable it's going to need a rather significant reduction to it's cap usage as well as a cap usage reduction attached to the skill that decreases duration.

Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-07-18 15:47:12 UTC
Maybe it would work on cap ships? I know nothing about those but maybe thats how they wanted it used? Like I said, i dunno **** about capships.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2012-07-18 16:01:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
The adaptation time is too long.

That the cap usage increases with higher skill is stupid. Increasing a skill should never have a direct drawback.

I don't trust the algorithm behind it to make the best choice when different sources of damage are incoming. Or does it actually calculate which damage type does the most damage?



In other words, I think this module would work better with scripts and no adaptation time.
Hideo Jones
Cheeseburger operations
#47 - 2012-10-05 21:09:20 UTC
Was most likely a typo Big smile
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-10-05 23:07:22 UTC
CrazySpaceHobo wrote:
Don't forget, it IS a t1 module and should be compared as such.
CCP said that once they've determined if the new modules are balanced, we'll see Meta and T2 versions, which I can only assume will be competitive with t2 EANM's.



The day that thing gets balanced you'll probably be retired and at least 2 grand grand children Lol

brb

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#49 - 2012-10-05 23:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
The problem OP is that you assume an even distribution of damage between two types. If the damage is primarily of one type then it shoots way, way ahead of an EANM after a short time. Even in the undesirable case of two even damage types, it's only a little worse than the EANM and costs less CPU.

Most individual ships will be doing one damage type primarily...with a few exceptions (Hybrids with AM will do a decent mix of kin/therm). Furthermore, you're comparing them to EANMs. I suspect that these would actually be more useful on a ship that needs to fill a resist hole...If you start getting hit in the hole the mod will compensate, while not being a wasted slot against every other type (Though this is risky; only doable if you're in a ship that will last a little while).

Also, as said before, it's a T1 mod
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-10-06 12:28:18 UTC
unstack its bonuses like a dcu.

Done.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.

Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-10-07 01:11:05 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
unstack its bonuses like a dcu.

Done.
Reactive Armor Hardener already doesn't stack with regular hardeners (it does stack with DCUs though).
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#52 - 2012-10-07 11:50:37 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
The problem OP is that you assume an even distribution of damage between two types. If the damage is primarily of one type then it shoots way, way ahead of an EANM after a short time. Even in the undesirable case of two even damage types, it's only a little worse than the EANM and costs less CPU.

Most individual ships will be doing one damage type primarily...with a few exceptions (Hybrids with AM will do a decent mix of kin/therm). Furthermore, you're comparing them to EANMs. I suspect that these would actually be more useful on a ship that needs to fill a resist hole...If you start getting hit in the hole the mod will compensate, while not being a wasted slot against every other type (Though this is risky; only doable if you're in a ship that will last a little while).

Also, as said before, it's a T1 mod


AFAIK it doesn't need even damage distribution, it reacts to all damage types equally even though one would only account for 1% of damage.

Unfortunately there are very few engagements on the smaller scale where all the opponents fly the same ship and do just one damage type, limiting this module to large fleet engagements where the other party is flying Amarr. Furthermore typical small gang fights are over well before this reactive hardener reaches it's full potential.

In PVE all rats do at least two damage types.

It seems that this module was only introduced to fool people into thinking that CCP actually cares about armor vs shield balance in the game.

.

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-10-07 15:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
Maybe it would work on cap ships? I know nothing about those but maybe thats how they wanted it used? Like I said, i dunno **** about capships.


When you see cap ships with EANM's+hardeners+hull resist p/lvl you can assume this module becomes interesting but I'm not really sure it's wise thinking.

+15% armor is 1slot , takes no cap and at this point (cap ships having very little HP right?) the physical HP increase might as well be more interesting.
It's not the RAH bonus or reactivity timer (2min) that will save that capital taking fire from every single dmg type by huge amounts.

Edit: for engagements under capital size things get volleyed unless you're fighting Drakes with Zealots, at smaller scale fights never last long enough for that module to ever reach 100% effectiveness and you'd be cap empty anyway.
For the 1vs1 fight happening once in a year with 2 opponents fighting with active tanks this would only empty faster your cargo of cap booster charges, even then, not sure at all this module has whatever interest in fights 1vs1.

brb

ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2012-10-07 16:05:00 UTC
Thread has been cleaned of needless insults, troll posts, foul language and flaming. Stay on topic please - ISD Type40.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-10-08 04:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Gerrick Palivorn
I'd be interested to see the results of testing the RAH on Armor Caps. I can imagine that a triage carrier or super would benefit greatly when flying against uniform fleet configurations (nobody flies those anyway). I would also like to test the amount the module changes the resists by, whether they are uniform or distribute according to amounts of damage of a certain type.

Edit: I'm interested to see what the T2 numbers are.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-

Marcus Gideon
Triglavian Assembly
#56 - 2012-10-08 06:09:37 UTC
Last time I fiddled with one, I noticed a few things. However, these could have changed since then...

If you start taking laser fire, it will shift towards 30 EM/ 30 Therm. Regardless of whether you're taking fire from Multi or Microwave, so long as there's some EM and some Therm, it'll shift equally. It does however, try to even out your EM and Therm resists as best it can. So if it needs to send a little more towards one or the other to level them out, it will do so.

Once its made the adjustment to EM and Therm, it tends to lock. That means a smart (and patient) opponent could swap for Missiles and shoot through the unprotected Kin/Exp hole.

The only way to fill the hole is to turn the module off and back on, starting back at base resists.

As has already been addressed, the key problem with the module as is... is the skillbook associated with it. Sure, it makes the module cycle faster. That means it'll adapt faster. But it does nothing for the Cap draw. And considering how hungry the module is to start with, compared to other active hardeners... speeding it up also makes it gobble Cap quicker. Training the skillbook is like giving every opponent you face from now on, a Neut to use against you.

Sure, we get it... its a prototype. Now let's see the real thing. Less Cap draw, or at least reduced draw as the skill trains. Let it continue to adapt, if the incoming damage profile shifts.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-10-08 09:25:36 UTC
Why don't they have the skill that affects the module reduce the cap usage by 10% as well as the cycle time? Seems like a very simple code edit and would not throw the module into the "OMFWTFBBQPWNZOR!!!!" zone. It could easily make the winter expansion.
Habris
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-10-14 10:29:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Habris
It would be nice if the RAH would use a base cap use of 1GJ per cycle when on "idle" which would make it inline with a DCU and when your ship is engaged have it bump up to 20-25. The 20-25GJ is roughly 2.5 to 3 times the usage of regular armor hardeners which would be fair in my eyes since it cycles every 5-6 seconds. The higher usage could remain constant as long as the ship was taking fire and then taper back down to the idle consumption once the hostilities ceased.

I haven't had much time using this module but from reading this thread and others perhaps the reactivity timer could be reduced to say %20-25 recalibration per cycle. That way with the skill maxed out at 5 the player can expect this module to be functioning within 20-25 seconds, but could it at least be under a minute. I really like the idea of this module so I am keeping it on my ship but just a few changes would make this a great module for armor tankers. It would also make sense to me to replace the duration overheat bonus with a resistance boost to be inline with other hardeners. My rationale is with the skill trained to level 5 is it really cool to have a module that has a cycle time of 4.25 which equates to a cap use of 9.8GJ a secound? Ugh

Also does the RAH start calibrating as soon as the ship is fired upon over once you start taking armor damage? I was just out letting a little rat shoot me for about 5 minutes and it did not fluctuate at all. Would be nice if it would configure to the incoming fire before it starts knocking on the hull.

To conclude I am excited about this mod but it needs a little love, not to the level of the ASB but just enough to make it shine and be relevant.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#59 - 2012-10-15 17:11:28 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
I feel like you'd be better off with an armor hardener that just took scripts instead of this terrible module.

I agree.

I have tested this mod and just can't seem to find a configuration where the cap drain is worth the extra 2-3% resists. Which is not actually 2-3% resists as it takes time for them to adjust.

An omni resists armor hardener that can be scripted would be way better. Say have a script for each race that adjusts the resists to best plug the resist holes of that race. Or maybe a scrip for each rat type that sets the resists to the two primary damage types for that specific rat faction.

A T2 version of the mod might give a little better resists, but will suck even more cap. having it give 30% resists to the two main incoming damage types while ratting is nice. but the cap costs just seem to high to justify the benefit. Might be worthwhile on a buffer tanked armor BS for PVP but then again most good PVPer will just compensate by adjusting damage types.
Perihelion Olenard
#60 - 2012-11-09 17:43:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
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