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Minmatar Capitals - that bad?!?
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Demolishar
United Aggression
#21 - 2012-10-05 16:22:30 UTC
Ragnarok is actually really nice - but it breaks fleet doctrine.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-10-05 18:33:34 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
The Executioner, Slicer, Retribution, Coercer, and Arbitrator are just fantastic for starting out PVP.


Shocked

The Coercer is the worst destroyer in the game. That single mid-slot kills any usefulness it might have. It's not fast enough to kite, not strong enough to brawl, doesn't have the alpha for ganks, can't do DPS until you get into T2 turrets and ammo. It might get a bit better in the winter release, but honestly: taking a Coercer into a PVP environment is basically offering your opponent a free killmail.

The Thrasher and Catalyst both outclass the Coercer in any combat role I can think of, and the Cormorant is both a better sniper and a better salvager due to the larger cargo-bay.

The Coercer is the worst ship in the Amarr lineup, by a mile.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#23 - 2012-10-05 19:07:30 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The Executioner, Slicer, Retribution, Coercer, and Arbitrator are just fantastic for starting out PVP.


Shocked

The Coercer is the worst destroyer in the game. That single mid-slot kills any usefulness it might have. It's not fast enough to kite, not strong enough to brawl, doesn't have the alpha for ganks, can't do DPS until you get into T2 turrets and ammo. It might get a bit better in the winter release, but honestly: taking a Coercer into a PVP environment is basically offering your opponent a free killmail.

The Thrasher and Catalyst both outclass the Coercer in any combat role I can think of, and the Cormorant is both a better sniper and a better salvager due to the larger cargo-bay.

The Coercer is the worst ship in the Amarr lineup, by a mile.


The Coercer is fantastic and will generally kill people at 20km before they can warp out.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#24 - 2012-10-05 20:48:13 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Idris Helion wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The Executioner, Slicer, Retribution, Coercer, and Arbitrator are just fantastic for starting out PVP.


Shocked

The Coercer is the worst destroyer in the game. That single mid-slot kills any usefulness it might have. It's not fast enough to kite, not strong enough to brawl, doesn't have the alpha for ganks, can't do DPS until you get into T2 turrets and ammo. It might get a bit better in the winter release, but honestly: taking a Coercer into a PVP environment is basically offering your opponent a free killmail.

The Thrasher and Catalyst both outclass the Coercer in any combat role I can think of, and the Cormorant is both a better sniper and a better salvager due to the larger cargo-bay.

The Coercer is the worst ship in the Amarr lineup, by a mile.


The Coercer is fantastic and will generally kill people at 20km before they can warp out.

-Liang


While it missing a point is bad I agree with Liang, Do not **** with coercers thinking it'll be easy. They'll melt your face.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#25 - 2012-10-05 23:00:11 UTC
People get too hung up on fotm thinking. The Coercer is ****, no matter how badly you prove them wrong. It can't possibly kill something without a point, web, mwd, ab, asb, 1600 rtp, and Garmon at the helm. Well Garmon is EvE's Chuck Norris, so he could kill a Leviathan with a repackaged Coercer.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Veryez
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#26 - 2012-10-06 12:45:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


The Executioner, Slicer, Retribution, Coercer, and Arbitrator are just fantastic for starting out PVP. From there you can move into the Arbitrator, NOmen, Harbinger, and Oracle. From there you're training for the Curse, Zealot, and Guardian. The situation gets even better come winter. Any claim that starting Amarr PVP is "meh" is just hogwash.

To address the OP: I have Minmatar Carrier 5 with all support skills at 5. I was wanting to get into flying a triage carrier a while back, but I was consistently told that people would rather fly with an Archon that had Amarr Carrier 3 and supports at 3. A few times I was told that the Nidhoggur wasn't going to be covered by corp replacement so I should train the Archon which was.

My personal opinion of the ships is that the Nidhoggur has some niche uses that the Archon can't fill - the most obvious which is POS repping. There's others, but I'm keeping them quiet for when I find a corp/alliance I want to triage for (probably in WH space?). :)

-Liang


Would be nice to fly with you one day, I'd love to pick your brain on setups. Sadly in wh space the Nid always winds up playing second fiddle. Chimera's rule Pulsars and Archons rule wolf-rayet's as it's better to do one thing well than 2 things ok. And IF they ever let Nags mount 3 guns (or fix citadel torps) it would replace the moros as the dread of choice in wh's, but currently XL blasters are just too good to overlook. Don't get me wrong, I'll never say no to a Nid alongside me, but there's a reason I'm training Caldari and Amarr Carriers atm.....
Mishra Ninghor
The Scarlet Storm
#27 - 2012-10-06 13:10:47 UTC
IMO Niddys should just be gimped further. Make its agility the level of a slowish battleship rather then a carrier and it's tank half of what it is today. A small scale focused carrier would be awesome.
Joneleth Rein
#28 - 2012-10-06 13:24:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Joneleth Rein
Mishra Ninghor wrote:
IMO Niddys should just be gimped further. Make its agility the level of a slowish battleship rather then a carrier and it's tank half of what it is today. A small scale focused carrier would be awesome.


I'm all in for a new smaller carrier for small combat ops and logistics (the way everyone's using the Orca minus the in-field rep). But I'd much rather it was a ship/class on it's own rather than gimp the already gimped minmatar caps to fit that role.

Spider Pig! Spider Pig! Does what a Spider Pig does.. Can he swing? From a web.. No he can't. He's a pig.
Noisrevbus
#29 - 2012-10-06 19:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Mishra Ninghor wrote:
IMO Niddys should just be gimped further. Make its agility the level of a slowish battleship rather then a carrier and it's tank half of what it is today. A small scale focused carrier would be awesome.


That's what Jeronica was talking about though... it kind of already is a "slowish battleship". The healthy amount of slots enable it.

Not many BS align in 10s, and there's plenty of interesting quirky application with that (warp in at distance, snipe with sentries etc.). It's useful on the Carrier and quite awesome on the Mothership.

Those 10s are not to be taken lightly. It's incredibly quick for a ship that can throw it's weight around like that.

The speed have some appeal too, as alot of people often forget the nature of tackling with caps on the field: regular points and secondary tackle are usually difficult to maintain. That means bubbling tend to be heavily favoured and coasting within bubbles can be useful. For the Nid it's usually more a question of getting to-from undocks and whatever utility they provide for the gang (eg., consider coasting over to a pinned Dread to provide re-fitting, smart-bombing or w/e). As with the align-time, it's even more useful on the Hel, which can coast out of bubbles and not be pointed by regular points (bubbling Hics are slow, bubbling Dics face cooldowns and focused Hics can be ECM'ed). The align time is king, but the coasting inside bubbles is more than knave. At those smaller scales mentioned, ofc.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#30 - 2012-10-07 13:33:46 UTC
Fun Fact! (And yes, the EFT Warrior is strong in this one...)


[Hel, EFTWhore]
Damage Control II
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System

Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
Pith X-Type Thermic Dissipation Field
Pith X-Type Kinetic Deflection Field
Pith X-Type Explosive Deflection Field

Remote ECM Burst I
Capital Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I
Capital Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I
Capital Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I
Capital Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I
Capital Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I

Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II

vs.

[Aeon, EFTWhore]
Centus X-Type Armor EM Hardener
Centus X-Type Armor Thermic Hardener
Centus X-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener
Centus X-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
Damage Control II
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Remote ECM Burst I
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector

Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II



As you can see, i have no idea about the Utilitystuff Supercaps need. Like Sensor boosters. So i just fitted 4 sebos to the aeon, achieveing by far superior locking times compared to the hel, but i dont give a fck. So basically, this Aeon with one tank slot more and a built in Tech II EANM and a full slave set will have more EHP than a Hel. Then again, when you hit 'Overheat' und both tanks, the gap of formerly 10 million EHP will close down to 2 million EHP difference. Oh and would you look at that, in a fictional setup, where one Aeon reps one Aeon and one Hel reps one Hel, given they have cap-in to run it and dont need smartbombs or neuts cause they have support that will deal with dics n hics, one Hel will tank ~30k incoming dps, one Aeon will tank 21k. Going into overheated hardeners again, the Hel will tank 60k dps, the Aeon will tank 30k.

But then again, that's just EFT warrioring at it's finest and not very useful. Oh yeah, maybe note that i compared the 'Shytty, shytty supercarrier that dies when you lock it with a shuttle' to the 'Holy Brick of Awesome that noone ever primaries'.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-10-07 14:29:24 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:


But then again, that's just EFT warrioring at it's finest and not very useful. Oh yeah, maybe note that i compared the 'Shytty, shytty supercarrier that dies when you lock it with a shuttle' to the 'Holy Brick of Awesome that noone ever primaries'.



You pretty much hit it right there.

Hel suffers compared to a an Aeon because of its tank type. Slave+armor makes the Aeon or even Nyx a better choice.

....and the resistance for Aeon or damage/capacity for the Nyx and its a fall over choice.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#32 - 2012-10-07 15:23:25 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:


But then again, that's just EFT warrioring at it's finest and not very useful. Oh yeah, maybe note that i compared the 'Shytty, shytty supercarrier that dies when you lock it with a shuttle' to the 'Holy Brick of Awesome that noone ever primaries'.



You pretty much hit it right there.

Hel suffers compared to a an Aeon because of its tank type. Slave+armor makes the Aeon or even Nyx a better choice.

....and the resistance for Aeon or damage/capacity for the Nyx and its a fall over choice.



Well, yeah, no. You see, people fly Armor Supers all the way. Cause not too long ago, when jumping into a System where fleet boosting is active, you would still have 100% armor, but your shield wouldn't. They changed it. Not too long ago, the only Invuls available were Caldari Navy and Dread Guristas, and well, when you wanted to upgrade, you had to go for officer mods.
Today, you will maintain 100% shield when jumping. And there are deadspace invuls. A Slaved Nyx has less EHP and worse resistances than a unslaved, no implant set at all Hel. It may dish out more damage, okay. It may have those medium slots for better scanres etc. But contrary to popular belief, the EHP values have changed from Aeon>Nyx/Wyvern>Hel to Wyvern>Aeon>Hel>Nyx. Thing is, there are so many Nyxes and Aeons around, you just can't replace them from now to next month and fly Shield Super Fleets. But as it stands now, it will only be a matter of time until one powerbloc or alliance will start getting into shield supers. Since almost everyone is afraid to lose their supers anyways when it comes to a capital brawl, i don't think that sticking with the lowest ehp/highest dps Super is the best way. The ones with high resists and better reps seem more reasonable to me. Especially since a Dreadnought can pump out similar amounts of damage like a supercarrier, and Titans jumping in to doomsday everything into oblivion are a serious threat. Being able to overheat your Invuls is definately better than being unable to overheat your EANMs.

That's at least my thought on Supercarriers and in fact, Minmatar Capitals. Hel is nice. Looks cool. Will die eventually. But so will the Nyxes...
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-10-07 17:36:31 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:


But then again, that's just EFT warrioring at it's finest and not very useful. Oh yeah, maybe note that i compared the 'Shytty, shytty supercarrier that dies when you lock it with a shuttle' to the 'Holy Brick of Awesome that noone ever primaries'.



You pretty much hit it right there.

Hel suffers compared to a an Aeon because of its tank type. Slave+armor makes the Aeon or even Nyx a better choice.

....and the resistance for Aeon or damage/capacity for the Nyx and its a fall over choice.



Well, yeah, no. You see, people fly Armor Supers all the way. Cause not too long ago, when jumping into a System where fleet boosting is active, you would still have 100% armor, but your shield wouldn't. They changed it. Not too long ago, the only Invuls available were Caldari Navy and Dread Guristas, and well, when you wanted to upgrade, you had to go for officer mods.
Today, you will maintain 100% shield when jumping. And there are deadspace invuls. A Slaved Nyx has less EHP and worse resistances than a unslaved, no implant set at all Hel. It may dish out more damage, okay. It may have those medium slots for better scanres etc. But contrary to popular belief, the EHP values have changed from Aeon>Nyx/Wyvern>Hel to Wyvern>Aeon>Hel>Nyx. Thing is, there are so many Nyxes and Aeons around, you just can't replace them from now to next month and fly Shield Super Fleets. But as it stands now, it will only be a matter of time until one powerbloc or alliance will start getting into shield supers. Since almost everyone is afraid to lose their supers anyways when it comes to a capital brawl, i don't think that sticking with the lowest ehp/highest dps Super is the best way. The ones with high resists and better reps seem more reasonable to me. Especially since a Dreadnought can pump out similar amounts of damage like a supercarrier, and Titans jumping in to doomsday everything into oblivion are a serious threat. Being able to overheat your Invuls is definately better than being unable to overheat your EANMs.

That's at least my thought on Supercarriers and in fact, Minmatar Capitals. Hel is nice. Looks cool. Will die eventually. But so will the Nyxes...


People will not switch to shield supers until capital missiles are buffed to the point of being able to hit a moving supercap for full damage, much less a moving carrier/etc. Guns just do so much better than missiles at the capital level that people aren't going to be replacing their titans/dreads with shield tanking ships. Additionally, they also aren't going to be replacing their archons with chimera's (for multiple reasons, that I don't feel like going into right now). While thanatos can be used with both types of fleets, they lack the buffer/resists of the archons/chimera's. Oh, and lol nidhoggur fitting.

-Arazel
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