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[Winter] Existing destroyer rebalancing

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#381 - 2012-10-05 16:23:38 UTC
Hum. Interesting. :)

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#382 - 2012-10-05 16:29:30 UTC
I like it

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#383 - 2012-10-05 16:34:10 UTC
Thanks for the reply.

.
Lili Lu
#384 - 2012-10-05 16:40:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Well this is better. I still think you have to stop giving 10% optimal bonuses on guns with already the longest optimal. So, I think you should have reduced the optimal on the Corm to 7.5 or 5 percent per level.

The Catalyst will still not excite me, but blaster combat in general is not my thing. At least the new revision will present combat role options for a Gallente pilot and not be so gimped in fittings as compared to the others. And, blasters will still sorta blow with only two mids, and thus only one scram. But the new mass does mean that the Catalyst will have an incentive to fit speed mods and not just damage mods in the lows so that it stands a chance to hold down something long enough to kill it, even if that target has a decent tank and a web.

So overall an improvement. I don't fly blaster boats much. But I suppose this change may make the blaster catalyst more viable. Thanks.

edti - thanks for getting rid of the drone. one drone on any ship is more of a pita than it's worth. Two drones are worth messing with though. So please in the future if you are going to give a small dronebay to anything make it two lights at least. Smile
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#385 - 2012-10-05 16:41:14 UTC
The catalyst needs three mids if its supposed to use blasters...


The only reason 2 mids will work on a Coercer is because of lolscorch.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Lili Lu
#386 - 2012-10-05 16:47:21 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
The catalyst needs three mids if its supposed to use blasters...

The only reason 2 mids will work on a Coercer is because of lolscorch.

Maybe. It will need some testing to know. Because the mass reduction and resulting mwd gain will make this thing a rather zippy one winged destroyer i suspect. At least though now it will be able to fit 150s and snipe as an alternate fitting.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#387 - 2012-10-05 18:17:59 UTC
Thank you very much CCP Yterrbium! Lol

Nuetron Blaster with a Genolution Implant Set: (I have a few of these saved as I like them so much)

High:
Nuetron Blaster II x 8
Mid:
Limited MWD
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Low:
DC II
TE II x 2
Rigs:
Hybrid Collision
Hybrid Burst

Null: 342 - 359 DPS depending on implants. 6.1km + 10.8km. Optimal + Falloff x 2 = 27km. Shocked
Faction AM: 429 - 451 DPS. 2.2km + 7.7km
Void: 479 - 503 DPS. 3.3km + 3.8km

OR (if you want more DPS)

New Lows:
TE II
MFS II
Internal Force Field Array

Null: 410 - 430 DPS. 5.4km + 8.5km
Faction AM: 514 - 540 DPS. 1.9km + 6.1km
Void: 574 - 602 DPS. 2.9k + 3.1km

You can fit 150s on the Catalyst buy I prefer to pimp out the DPS on the 125s that no longer need fitting help AND actually get a point on the thing.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#388 - 2012-10-05 21:02:06 UTC
Fitting space at the expense of the dronebay is fine, a single light drone is essentiallly worthless anyway so this represents a pretty straightforward buff.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We also had a look at the Catalyst bonuses, but we find them acceptable as they are right now - swapping turret optimal range to falloff would be detrimental to long range Catalyst setups, especially with the fittings changes, that's why no modifications are planned on that front.


There's such a thing as long ranged catalyst setups (I mean ones that people actually, unironicly, fly on TQ)?

Either way, as things stand the optimal and falloff bonuses fit poorly together - whichever weapon type you focus on, you will effectively have a 'wasted' bonus since increases to falloff on rails and optimal on blasters are of little use. All the other three destroyers can use their three bonuses effectively together, why must the Catalyst be hamstrung in this way?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Jarin Arenos
Card Shark Industries
#389 - 2012-10-05 22:08:02 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Coercer: mass decreased from 1665000 to 1650000, agility increased from 2.75 to 2.77 to keep close align time
  • Cormorant: mass decreased from 1892000 to 1700000, agility increased from 2.5 to 2.78 to keep close align time
  • Catalyst: mass decreased from 1761000 to 1550000, agility increased from 2.45 to 2.76 to keep close align time
  • Thrasher: mass increased from 1542000 to 1600000, agility decreased from 2.96 to 2.8 to keep close align time

Can someone enlighten me on just what the mass difference will do if it keeps t he same effective agility?

But I'm not CCP Soundwave, so what do I know?
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#390 - 2012-10-05 22:35:48 UTC
Jarin Arenos wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Coercer: mass decreased from 1665000 to 1650000, agility increased from 2.75 to 2.77 to keep close align time
  • Cormorant: mass decreased from 1892000 to 1700000, agility increased from 2.5 to 2.78 to keep close align time
  • Catalyst: mass decreased from 1761000 to 1550000, agility increased from 2.45 to 2.76 to keep close align time
  • Thrasher: mass increased from 1542000 to 1600000, agility decreased from 2.96 to 2.8 to keep close align time

Can someone enlighten me on just what the mass difference will do if it keeps t he same effective agility?


Higher top speed I believe.

Speed change is nice; if that extra 200m/s for the cat is correct then this brings them nicely up the new cruiser speeds and with an overdrive/nano will be around assault ship Microwarpdrive speeds

Nice fittings change son the Cat, I like the flexibility of the current bonuses with those fittings.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#391 - 2012-10-05 22:36:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
This is christmas before christmas. The new catalyst will be awesome. BTW, there is some catalyst with railguns on TQ, and I even think they are more efective than blaster catalyst for everything else than highsec suicide gank.

Though the mass reduction will make them way faster with MWD/AB, and that was really needed, because cruiser will be as fast as them otherwise.

PS : optimal + falloff bonuses allow the catalyst for both railguns or blasters fit. Optimal and falloff also benefit to both of them, allowing railgun to extend range without downgrading ammo, and blasters to "kite" AC ships with void ammo.
The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#392 - 2012-10-06 00:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: The VC's
Scatim Helicon wrote:
There's such a thing as long ranged catalyst setups (I mean ones that people actually, unironicly, fly on TQ)?


Seriously mate, give the 125mm Rail Cat a go. Pirate



Edit. the 150mm version is gonna suprise a few people too..
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#393 - 2012-10-06 07:50:27 UTC
The VC's wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
There's such a thing as long ranged catalyst setups (I mean ones that people actually, unironicly, fly on TQ)?


Seriously mate, give the 125mm Rail Cat a go. Pirate

Edit. the 150mm version is gonna suprise a few people too..

With that low a mass they are going to be downright OP .. what is supposed to catch them, one will literally have to start at point blank range to have a chance .. base speed with just MWD is in excess of 2k/s which is more than the current Thrash Smile

Why handle the others with a feather touch and then slap the Cata with the whole damn goose?

Yes, destroyers will be close to the speeds that can be achieved by the revised cruisers, so what? If one chooses to bring a knife to a gun fight one has it bloody well coming .. if you want to run circles around something buy a damn frig!
Destroyers are not meant to be able to chase down their prey (frigates), the insane sphere of death they can all produce testifies to this. They are specialized ships and should die horribly if a heavier ship arrives unless they bolt ...

To Ytterbium: Ignore the calls from the Nano-age Reminiscence Country Club and balance them according their intended use .. against frigates and other destroyers. Do not make the mistake of including cruisers+ in the deliberations.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#394 - 2012-10-06 10:34:53 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
The VC's wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
There's such a thing as long ranged catalyst setups (I mean ones that people actually, unironicly, fly on TQ)?


Seriously mate, give the 125mm Rail Cat a go. Pirate

Edit. the 150mm version is gonna suprise a few people too..

With that low a mass they are going to be downright OP .. what is supposed to catch them, one will literally have to start at point blank range to have a chance .. base speed with just MWD is in excess of 2k/s which is more than the current Thrash Smile

Why handle the others with a feather touch and then slap the Cata with the whole damn goose?

Yes, destroyers will be close to the speeds that can be achieved by the revised cruisers, so what? If one chooses to bring a knife to a gun fight one has it bloody well coming .. if you want to run circles around something buy a damn frig!
Destroyers are not meant to be able to chase down their prey (frigates), the insane sphere of death they can all produce testifies to this. They are specialized ships and should die horribly if a heavier ship arrives unless they bolt ...

To Ytterbium: Ignore the calls from the Nano-age Reminiscence Country Club and balance them according their intended use .. against frigates and other destroyers. Do not make the mistake of including cruisers+ in the deliberations.





no, just give it a try. cat still has only two mids.
for once, let the blaster boat be the fastest one and lets see how this turns out. i mean there is still the test phase on buckingham (btw, whats the eta on this, ccp? ).
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#395 - 2012-10-06 10:43:23 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
no, just give it a try. cat still has only two mids.
for once, let the blaster boat be the fastest one and lets see how this turns out. i mean there is still the test phase on buckingham (btw, whats the eta on this, ccp? ).

Certainly, just doubt you'll see many blaster fits when it has a speed surplus high enough to kite almost everything using rails Big smile
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#396 - 2012-10-06 11:31:03 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
no, just give it a try. cat still has only two mids.
for once, let the blaster boat be the fastest one and lets see how this turns out. i mean there is still the test phase on buckingham (btw, whats the eta on this, ccp? ).

Certainly, just doubt you'll see many blaster fits when it has a speed surplus high enough to kite almost everything using rails Big smile


you mean the one which will die horribly to any of the new dessies and any speedy non t1 frig with a web?
crucifier, rocket breacher and maybe slasher will also have an easy time shutting a rail cat downor go under the guns and eating it up one by one.
don't get me wrong. there is much potential for an awesome ship, but there are also some good counters in the dessy and frig realm, so i am not overly concerned.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#397 - 2012-10-06 12:50:45 UTC
We'll see what happens. The most used or effective destroyer's will most likely be Minmatar and Caldari, with some Amarr. However, the Coercer can be kited in overheated warp disruptor range by a Thrasher, Comorant and Catalyst NOW. The alpha from a art-Thrasher is still very powerful. I don't fear the Catalyst now and I won't after these proposed changes.


Most of these ships will still be the pray of certain assault frigates and each other.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#398 - 2012-10-06 15:01:00 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
no, just give it a try. cat still has only two mids.
for once, let the blaster boat be the fastest one and lets see how this turns out. i mean there is still the test phase on buckingham (btw, whats the eta on this, ccp? ).

Certainly, just doubt you'll see many blaster fits when it has a speed surplus high enough to kite almost everything using rails Big smile


you mean the one which will die horribly to any of the new dessies and any speedy non t1 frig with a web?
crucifier, rocket breacher and maybe slasher will also have an easy time shutting a rail cat downor go under the guns and eating it up one by one.
don't get me wrong. there is much potential for an awesome ship, but there are also some good counters in the dessy and frig realm, so i am not overly concerned.


One does not kite in a rail Catalyst. One charges. Pick a point past the target and double click it. Overheat your MWD at the last moment. It is much harder to get under a target's guns if you're approaching eachother at 6km/s then if you're 4km/s frigate is chasing a 2km/s target. Also - if you are fighting a ship famous for TD - load a longer range ammo. Faction lead does 289 DPS at 23 km with 14km falloff. Lastly, 125mm rail cat shoots every 1.53 seconds. The impetus is on the frigate to get under the guns rather then in the destroyer to kill it before you get there.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#399 - 2012-10-06 15:13:08 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
We'll see what happens. The most used or effective destroyer's will most likely be Minmatar and Caldari, with some Amarr. However, the Coercer can be kited in overheated warp disruptor range by a Thrasher, Comorant and Catalyst NOW. The alpha from a art-Thrasher is still very powerful. I don't fear the Catalyst now and I won't after these proposed changes.


Most of these ships will still be the pray of certain assault frigates and each other.


Coercer will be king.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#400 - 2012-10-06 15:40:17 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
PS : optimal + falloff bonuses allow the catalyst for both railguns or blasters fit. Optimal and falloff also benefit to both of them, allowing railgun to extend range without downgrading ammo, and blasters to "kite" AC ships with void ammo.


The role bonus only gives 3.5km extra falloff to a Catalyst with 150mm rails, and the benefit of optimal bonuses to blasters is typically measured in metres rather than kilometres. These are marginal benefits, and to all practical purposes the hull will always be effectively losing a bonus except in one-in-a-thousand fringe cases.

None of the other three existing destroyer hulls are hamstrung in this way and there's no reason why the Catalyst should be.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.