These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Winter] Combat Cruisers

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#381 - 2012-10-05 04:19:34 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
But in practice the extra bandwidth helps very little, as mixed drone flights apply damage poorly...
Then odds are you are fairly terrible at using drones in PvP. I don't say that meanly or to wave e-peen around. It's just that you need to adjust your tactics. The 75m3 on the Vexor/Myrm is just fine for applying damage. If you are just looking at things from a PvE point of view, then yeah 50m3 works better. But you don't alter a ship so that it's better for PvE.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#382 - 2012-10-05 04:54:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Three to five drones won't help much against experienced frigates, you need a fourth mid if that is the goal .. and that won't (and shouldn't) happen.

Nothing wrong with being vulnerable to a frigate as long as it has something worthwhile against larger stuff (ie. bring the pain!). That is the problem with proposed iteration, it has lowest or second lowest dependent on fit dps with no redeeming attributes. It will still be a glorified brick comparatively.


Yeah good frigates and pilots can probably deal with 3 light drones, so then why object to the drone bay. Really what I was looking at and probably didn't articulate well is this. The Maller is the only one that feels particularly vulnerable to a frigate getting under it's guns. I'm not looking to make the Maller a frigate killer either I'm just wondering why the Maller is the only one where the vulnerability is so glaring.

Moa: Has 6 highs with 5 turrets, leaves space for a neut, 4 mids is sufficient for a web though with the shield tanking bonus it may not happen often and it has a 15/15 drone bay. Even if you do get under the Moa's guns in something small and the Moa does not have a web, it's far from helpless.

Rupture: Open high again for neut which is often carried on the ship now, I doubt this update will change that. 4 mids is enough for a web and a 15/15 drone bay again. See the Moa above.

Vexor: Although you might have to go with less than the max possible EFT listed dps (nevermind that bit 100m drone bay with 75 bandwidth), a full flight of bonused Warrior IIs are a serious threat to most kiting frigates, scram/web and damage output will deal with brawlers. 4 mids again makes fitting a web entirely possible.

The Maller is the only ship in this list with none of these counters available, we're on the same page with not giving it 4 mids, which is why I hinted I was dreaming in asking for it. Without doing a lot of number crunching I get the impression that the Maller is going to be dead last in the dps category as well as dead last in the versatility category, winning only in tank and potentially damage projection. But seeing as it is a brick/bait you're going to want to get in close, probably fit a scram and slug it out with most things confident you'll outlast them in which case you're not really using the projection advantage.

In principle I think we're in agreement here, as you don't seem to think it has redeeming qualities against larger ships either, with maybe just a few details to work out. I would like to see the maller actually fielded some of the time. As of right now I have Amarr/Gallente/Caldari cruisers all trained to V and I can't ever see myself getting into a Maller when the others in this list and the attack cruiser list (or even the Arbitrator) are choices.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#383 - 2012-10-05 05:24:16 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
But in practice the extra bandwidth helps very little, as mixed drone flights apply damage poorly...
Then odds are you are fairly terrible at using drones in PvP. I don't say that meanly or to wave e-peen around. It's just that you need to adjust your tactics. The 75m3 on the Vexor/Myrm is just fine for applying damage. If you are just looking at things from a PvE point of view, then yeah 50m3 works better. But you don't alter a ship so that it's better for PvE.

So what you are saying is that a group of 2 heavy 2 medium and 1 small is better at hitting a player than a dumber than a box of rocks npc rat? Despite heavy drones having bad tracking and low velocity? And upping the bonus the hull gives to drone damage to compensate for the reduction of bandwidth woul be much better than leaving it as is, because this way you can carry an extra set of drones.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#384 - 2012-10-05 05:58:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Michael Harari wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
hp*dps score


This explains so many of your posts


Tell me more about how math is detrimental for understanding balance.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#385 - 2012-10-05 06:07:29 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So what you are saying is that a group of 2 heavy 2 medium and 1 small is better at hitting a player than a dumber than a box of rocks npc rat? Despite heavy drones having bad tracking and low velocity?
Tracking isn't so much the issue if you are using 2/2/1 tactics correctly. Travel time however, is an issue. But that is a problem that should only really be cropping up in a PvE situation. In which case, a flight of medium drones works much better. Multiple fast opponents in a PvP situation is a real bad place for a droneboat no matter what drones you use (unless you are sitting away from the action sniping with sentries). Ships have weaknesses. That's one of the weaknesses of a droneboat.
JamesCLK
#386 - 2012-10-05 07:43:36 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So what you are saying is that a group of 2 heavy 2 medium and 1 small is better at hitting a player than a dumber than a box of rocks npc rat? Despite heavy drones having bad tracking and low velocity?
Tracking isn't so much the issue if you are using 2/2/1 tactics correctly. Travel time however, is an issue. But that is a problem that should only really be cropping up in a PvE situation. In which case, a flight of medium drones works much better. Multiple fast opponents in a PvP situation is a real bad place for a droneboat no matter what drones you use (unless you are sitting away from the action sniping with sentries). Ships have weaknesses. That's one of the weaknesses of a droneboat.


Well, that, and a hell of a lot of drones are redundant and useless (EM and KIN drones, damp drones, most heavy drones, the list goes on...). Drones in general need a look at, and to his credit, CCP Ytterbium has posted about how drones will receive some love sometime soon™ hopefully.
Hull bonuses would help, but I'm thinking along the lines of specific bonuses to specific sizes of drones instead of global buffs. What?

-- -.-- / -.-. .-.. --- -. . / .. ... / - --- --- / . -..- .--. . -. ... .. ...- . / - --- / ..- -. -.. --- -.-. -.- / ... - --- .--. / .--. .-.. . .- ... . / ... . -. -.. / .... . .-.. .--. / ... - --- .--.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#387 - 2012-10-05 08:29:18 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Well, back in the days I had ALOT OF DREAMS...

Just watched that and they used a 1:4 logistics to Maller ratio (not counting the Carrier) .. hardly overpowered .. think of what the minimum numbers required might be compared to a Zealot/SFI/Legion AHAC fleet. It is a gimmick at best, reason why someone like PL can get away with it is probably because they'll never face anything remotely threatening due to their super blob on perpetual stand-by no matter what they do or where they are (or so the rumours go Smile).

Maller swarm has abysmal range (practically all ships in range of a single bomb!) and insanely cap sensitive (yes, even AB fits) which will get worse when bonuses are changed and you need a metric ton of them to make up for the crappy individual damage.

At any rate, balancing sub-caps to account for the blob scenario will inevitably ruin every other scenario as there are options available in blob-land that do not exist outside (bubbles, bombs, bridges et al.). Makes sense to do it when it comes to capitals but since we are bickering over cruisers ....

PS: Looking forward to seeing HAM Caracal Swarm videos post iteration .. those should be madly effective.
PPS: T1 logistics .. low'ish EHP, full size sigs, no resists and stuck in molasses (most of them anyway) .. yeah, they'll be a nuisance if exploited (read: spammed) but in 'regular' use they'll be a liability as dps/ewar is infinitely more important on the small scale.

Vexors are nasty as hell currently and will be more so with proposed changes. The amount of damage they can dump into you at close range is staggering .. pure dps tanks thanks to being able to abuse the snot out of suitcases due to higher structure.
But yeah, drone (gank) boats lose their advantage when numbers grow which is not necessarily a bad thing as long as alternatives exist which the revised Thorax more than represents.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#388 - 2012-10-05 09:04:40 UTC
JamesCLK wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So what you are saying is that a group of 2 heavy 2 medium and 1 small is better at hitting a player than a dumber than a box of rocks npc rat? Despite heavy drones having bad tracking and low velocity?
Tracking isn't so much the issue if you are using 2/2/1 tactics correctly. Travel time however, is an issue. But that is a problem that should only really be cropping up in a PvE situation. In which case, a flight of medium drones works much better. Multiple fast opponents in a PvP situation is a real bad place for a droneboat no matter what drones you use (unless you are sitting away from the action sniping with sentries). Ships have weaknesses. That's one of the weaknesses of a droneboat.


Well, that, and a hell of a lot of drones are redundant and useless (EM and KIN drones, damp drones, most heavy drones, the list goes on...). Drones in general need a look at, and to his credit, CCP Ytterbium has posted about how drones will receive some love sometime soon™ hopefully.
Hull bonuses would help, but I'm thinking along the lines of specific bonuses to specific sizes of drones instead of global buffs. What?


where did CCP Ytterbium post this?
i've only seen him say amarr drones are crap

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#389 - 2012-10-05 11:34:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Alghara
Always you have the same problem CCP.

Autocannon versus laser or hybrid (more important in medium guns).

You can't give in the same race the speed, the dps and the range.

Since the nerf of the web, it's impossible to catch some target at more than 10 km.

All Minmatar ship have the possibility to orbit at more than 14 km make the full dps (stay in short range ammunition). You can't catch them it's not possible to kill them, it's really easy to understand.

If you would like to balance the ship you need to break one of the three advantage (speed, the dps or range).

For me the main problem come from Range of the autocannon. If you nerf the falloff, the minmatar need come really in short range less than 10 km with short ammunition.

Nerf the tracking enhancer or decrease the autocannon falloff.

Now the maller is a **** because i can't catch nothing and make a **** of dps.
Same for Moa.
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#390 - 2012-10-05 11:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Alghara
double post
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#391 - 2012-10-05 12:24:31 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So what you are saying is that a group of 2 heavy 2 medium and 1 small is better at hitting a player than a dumber than a box of rocks npc rat? Despite heavy drones having bad tracking and low velocity?
Tracking isn't so much the issue if you are using 2/2/1 tactics correctly. Travel time however, is an issue. But that is a problem that should only really be cropping up in a PvE situation. In which case, a flight of medium drones works much better. Multiple fast opponents in a PvP situation is a real bad place for a droneboat no matter what drones you use (unless you are sitting away from the action sniping with sentries). Ships have weaknesses. That's one of the weaknesses of a droneboat.

So with this i can believe you are refering to blob warfare, and it is bad to balance ships around that as well. 1v1 the drones will be kited rendering them ineffective, so what kind of pvp style are you referring to where a 2 2 1 setup is good

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#392 - 2012-10-05 13:19:22 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So with this i can believe you are refering to blob warfare, and it is bad to balance ships around that as well. 1v1 the drones will be kited rendering them ineffective, so what kind of pvp style are you referring to where a 2 2 1 setup is good
LOL. No. Much smaller than blobs. I'd say anything larger than 4vs4 and droneboats start to lose their effectiveness as people get spread out. Can't say for certain on that one, cuz it's been awhile since I've done much gang fighting. I'm usually solo, so most of the action is targeted right at me, which makes drones use a bit easier tbh (whether there is 1 opponent, or 8). And strangely enough I find that 2/2/1 shines most in 1v1 fights. Perhaps your vast drone PvP experience has been different?

So I find the bandwidth to be great. It works, and works well. If you want smaller bandwidth with a deep bay, then switch to Amarr. Arbi/Curse/Pilgrim are all good ships. But the Vexor (and currently the Myrm) rock just fine with 75m3. No need to change it.
JamesCLK
#393 - 2012-10-05 13:54:30 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
JamesCLK wrote:
Well, that, and a hell of a lot of drones are redundant and useless (EM and KIN drones, damp drones, most heavy drones, the list goes on...). Drones in general need a look at, and to his credit, CCP Ytterbium has posted about how drones will receive some love sometime soon™ hopefully.
Hull bonuses would help, but I'm thinking along the lines of specific bonuses to specific sizes of drones instead of global buffs. What?

where did CCP Ytterbium post this?
i've only seen him say amarr drones are crap


I'm just extrapolating from that particular post because I don't think CCP Ytterbium is narrow minded enough to think that the only issue with drones is the Amarr ones. So I think that if/when Amarr drones get fixed, drones in general will be looked at.
There's a lot of things you can do while you're at it once a can of worms is opened.
The biggest effort is usually opening the can in the first place. P

-- -.-- / -.-. .-.. --- -. . / .. ... / - --- --- / . -..- .--. . -. ... .. ...- . / - --- / ..- -. -.. --- -.-. -.- / ... - --- .--. / .--. .-.. . .- ... . / ... . -. -.. / .... . .-.. .--. / ... - --- .--.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#394 - 2012-10-05 14:10:46 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
If you want smaller bandwidth with a deep bay, then switch to Amarr. Arbi/Curse/Pilgrim are all good ships. But the Vexor (and currently the Myrm) rock just fine with 75m3. No need to change it.

Im not saying to increase the bay on the vexor, what i am saying is Increase the damage bonus from the hull to compensate for a reduction in bandwidth. Which would make the following true
Amarr drone ships have greater versatility buy having bogger drone bays, but do less damage than Gallente drone ships.
Gallente ships have greater damage than amarr drone ships, but lack the versatility from a large drone bay.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#395 - 2012-10-05 14:24:07 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Im not saying to increase the bay on the vexor, what i am saying is Increase the damage bonus from the hull to compensate for a reduction in bandwidth. Which would make the following true
Amarr drone ships have greater versatility buy having bogger drone bays, but do less damage than Gallente drone ships.
Gallente ships have greater damage than amarr drone ships, but lack the versatility from a large drone bay.
Yeah I know what you're saying, it's just never going to happen. You want a higher than +10% damage/lvl to drones. Only one ship in the past 6 years has had that, and they realized it was a bad idea and removed the bonus. That was on a Dread. Now you want that kind of bonus on a cruiser? Keep dreaming dude.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#396 - 2012-10-05 14:32:24 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Im not saying to increase the bay on the vexor, what i am saying is Increase the damage bonus from the hull to compensate for a reduction in bandwidth. Which would make the following true
Amarr drone ships have greater versatility buy having bogger drone bays, but do less damage than Gallente drone ships.
Gallente ships have greater damage than amarr drone ships, but lack the versatility from a large drone bay.
Yeah I know what you're saying, it's just never going to happen. You want a higher than +10% damage/lvl to drones. Only one ship in the past 6 years has had that, and they realized it was a bad idea and removed the bonus. That was on a Dread. Now you want that kind of bonus on a cruiser? Keep dreaming dude.

The rorqual has a 20% per level currently. Drone bays were removed from all dreads and titans for being way too good at destroying sub cap ships. Also the moros got 5 large drones, the vexor is a medium ship, so medium drones.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#397 - 2012-10-05 14:52:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Im not saying to increase the bay on the vexor, what i am saying is Increase the damage bonus from the hull to compensate for a reduction in bandwidth. Which would make the following true
Amarr drone ships have greater versatility buy having bogger drone bays, but do less damage than Gallente drone ships.
Gallente ships have greater damage than amarr drone ships, but lack the versatility from a large drone bay.
Yeah I know what you're saying, it's just never going to happen. You want a higher than +10% damage/lvl to drones. Only one ship in the past 6 years has had that, and they realized it was a bad idea and removed the bonus. That was on a Dread. Now you want that kind of bonus on a cruiser? Keep dreaming dude.



You, are talking nonsense.

Not that i think it should get that bonus but still

I'd like seeing it on the gallente dessie.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Nnezu
Artificial Memories
#398 - 2012-10-05 15:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nnezu
Alghara wrote:
Minmatar OP needs nerf they kite me all the time.



Srsly, why am I always laughing when I'm against a AC rupture and crying against a thorax with null... Because only one of them does damage ^^ (And omg: thorax will get a 4th mid, this makes me cry for real... mostly tears of joy on my side)

Honestly, if your problem is slingshotting into range, use ctrl-space and the OH buton for your mwd and you can even close in to a cynabal. Getting kited by minmatar and dying in their falloff means that you failed to warp-off or to close in for around 5 minutes.
Cyrek Ohaya
Blazing Sun Group
#399 - 2012-10-05 16:05:29 UTC
I'm not liking the changes to the rupture, this might feel like the beginning of butchering minmatar ships personally, while I welcome the changes to the other cruisers, it now had lowest EHP for a brawling ship, lowest capacitor, and a less turret slot it might not compare to a 5 turret full racked maller.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#400 - 2012-10-05 16:27:45 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The rorqual has a 20% per level currently. Drone bays were removed from all dreads and titans for being way too good at destroying sub cap ships. Also the moros got 5 large drones, the vexor is a medium ship, so medium drones.

Garviel Tarrant wrote:
You, are talking nonsense.
Indeed! It seems that I am. Still.... ain't gonna happen.