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Ore Imbalance
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Cap James Tkirk
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#261 - 2012-10-03 20:19:55 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


Did you by any chance put up another tower?


If you are talking about the light missile launcher you can fit, then it's sadly still terribad because the beginner miner would lack the support skill to make it efficient. Going like a true newbie, 0.6 is already hard to deal with. I personally ahd to warp out of belt often before filling the cargo hold. Thats a pure miner training with no support skill because miners who does not know better will only train toward mining.

La Nariz wrote:


Someone finally gets it, I think I should go do a shot now.



It was said 14 trillion time in the last 2 weeks iirc...


I'm not talking about missile launchers at all, I'm merely wondering if Krixtal "ragequit" Icefluxor put up another tower. Also just because we say something and corroborate it doesn't mean morons won't keep spouting the same wrong crap Sad.


my apologies i wasnt responding to your post but to the **hat above me

o/
Inquisitor Tyr
VEN0M0US.
Out of the Blue.
#262 - 2012-10-03 21:39:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Inquisitor Tyr
The issue at hand is Risk vs. Reward - and this is a system that needs to be monitored and adjusted by CCP as outcomes to their system that they don't forsee arise.

It's interesting to see that there are still people who believe the current mineral prices are completely driven by player activities and completely ignore the changes to the game that drove those changes. The players are reacting to a change CCP made to other systems, and due to the complexity of eve an unfortunate outcome has arisen. Its players that place the buy/sell orders but its CCP that creates the system that drives the players.

My contacts in empire mining corps have slowly turned into incursion runners. The point here being that many empire miners have turned to other activities. Incursions were quite the Isk Faucet for a time and that drew even the most avid miner into incursion fleets - and even after they made incursions less valuable those same miners are still at it.

If CCP set out to make empire mining more valuable; that was a success. In fact nullsec mining hasn't become any less valuable than it was 1.5 years ago - In my stats sheet I can see a price for Megacyte in Jita from 1.5 years ago was 1902 Isk. A couple of days ago it was 1937 Isk. There are fluctuations but its overall steady for the former high end minerals.

Again, this is about risk vs. reward - CCP changed the system and created a "vanilla" mining universe where all things are equally valuable.

Here is a relative value chart of ores based on current prices. The value is relative to the lowest valued ore. The numbers come from a break down of the mineral componenents of each ore type and are updated based on mineral values. I use this tool to tell me what to mine on a given day.

Take note that mining High End Scordite is just as valuable as Standard Arkonor.
Quote:

261.3% Veldspar
301.8% Scordite
293.8% Pyroxeres
299.7% Plagioclase
187.9% Omber
286.7% Kernite
298.5% Jaspet
301.2% Hemorphite
315.0% Hedbergite
116.6% Gneiss
216.4% Dark Ochre
100.0% Spodumain
230.5% Crockite
248.5% Bistot
339.8% Arkonor


Here is the same chart with prices from Pre-Incursion / Drone Nerf / T1 Loot revamp. The skew is towards the nullsec ores maintining a reasonable risk-reward scale.

Quote:

106.7% Veldspar
106.3% Scordite
137.7% Pyroxeres
100.0% Plagioclase
100.1% Omber
126.3% Kernite
186.9% Jaspet
209.5% Hemorphite
214.0% Hedbergite
122.2% Gneiss
190.7% Dark Ochre
108.2% Spodumain
251.8% Crockite
292.3% Bistot
382.4% Arkonor


edit * Actually this second value scale is really a perfect example of how it should look. Even the low-sec ores provide a benefit to the miner, but not quite as much as the nullsec ones. And the hardest to find ore - arkonor - is the king. It was brilliant.

PS - When was the last time you used a titan fleet to aquire a mineral belt in empire the way alliances claim -1.0 truesec systems in null? So dont even try to pretend nullsec mining is less work.
Cap James Tkirk
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#263 - 2012-10-03 21:51:03 UTC
then working as intended more risk in HS tehn null blue firewalls IMO i guess this can be closed now eh
Inquisitor Tyr
VEN0M0US.
Out of the Blue.
#264 - 2012-10-03 22:56:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Inquisitor Tyr
Cap James Tkirk wrote:
then working as intended more risk in HS tehn null blue firewalls IMO i guess this can be closed now eh


I’m not saying your opinion is incorrect, it’s just less correct than mine :P

But I can understand why your perspective is so myopic - no doubt, living in that wormhole your corp calls home gives you a valid perspective on what’s going on in null and empire :P

Empire is safer: Concord - End of discussion.

What you are arguing is that nullsec is safer because the players work together. That is a testament to the players who live there and work together. They are doing eve right - Perhaps the miners in empire should follow suit and create intel channels.
Cap James Tkirk
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#265 - 2012-10-03 23:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Cap James Tkirk
not myopic at all the market is a free player driven market now that tools that used to pump the market with mineral IE bots and drone goo are gone and HS miners can make a decent wage for how they want to play the game your throwing a tantrum because the overmined and over inflated market of High-end minerals has become a .01 isk game since null miners are trying to sell the wares they built up and do not want to be sitting on a stockpile of items that the value is descending........ since this is a open market and we the players are driving it why not take control instead of crying to CCP to fix what is not broken?
Inquisitor Tyr
VEN0M0US.
Out of the Blue.
#266 - 2012-10-03 23:12:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Inquisitor Tyr
No one is throwing a tantrum - I am simply pointing out reasons why I find your perspective is incomplete and you are unable to counter it. Hence you are now attributing false traits to me in a desperate attempt to gain a foothold on the wall of overwhelming logic that you are now up against.

Quote:
not myopic at all the market is a free player driven market now that tools that used to pump the market with mineral IE bots and drone goo are gone and HS miners can make a decent wage for how they want to play the game your throwing a tantrum because the overmined and over inflated market of High-end minerals has become a .01 isk game since null miners are trying to sell the wares they built up and do not want to be sitting on a stockpile of items that the value is descending........ since this is a open market and we the players are driving it why not take control instead of crying to CCP to fix what is not broken?


I find it hard to take a person who doesn't use a single period or comma in their entire paragraph seriously. Honestly, learn how to separate your thoughts and ideas because your post is just one long run-on sentence.

Anyways, you missed this:
Quote:
It's interesting to see that there are still people who believe the current mineral prices are completely driven by player activities and completely ignore the changes to the game that drove those changes. The players are reacting to a change CCP made to other systems, and due to the complexity of eve an unfortunate outcome has arisen. Its players that place the buy/sell orders but its CCP that creates the system that drives the players.
Cap James Tkirk
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#267 - 2012-10-03 23:14:50 UTC
and i give a fuq about proper grammar in a gaming world because?

and you point nothin out but an attempt to say my POV is myopic but where is the proofs so by you adding attributes to myself i only felt it fair to add tehm back no?
Inquisitor Tyr
VEN0M0US.
Out of the Blue.
#268 - 2012-10-03 23:30:06 UTC
Cap James Tkirk wrote:
and i give a fuq about proper grammar in a gaming world because?

and you point nothin out but an attempt to say my POV is myopic but where is the proofs so by you adding attributes to myself i only felt it fair to add tehm back no?


You should "give a fuq" because you are here trying to convince people of your perspective. What you say and how you say it tells people things about you, such as your level of education, if you are intelligent and if you are thinking rationally. In other words, if people should listen to you and take you seriously.

You may change peoples minds if you are engaged in a meaningful discussion with a clear head rather than simply reacting to comments on an emotional level.

And don't try pretend you suddenly dont "give a fuq" when your actions, namely making multiple posts in this thread, show that you clearly do "give a fuq".

But at least you are trying(sort of), I'll give you that.
Cap James Tkirk
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#269 - 2012-10-03 23:36:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Cap James Tkirk
let me correct you a bit i do not give a fuq about my punctuation on forums cause i dont i have to be very punctual for my work and ya know decided to leave work where its at...... the office

my level of education you say so if you had to surmise my education level where would you think it to be what do you think i do to make my living but due to my apprent lack of education and insinuaating all people of lesser intelligence must have SHITE jobs and lives to compliment that hmmm? becasue i dont give a fuq about proper grammar on a game forum

i guess with your special abilites you can tell all these things hmm?

maybe not also spectacular job turning this into an attack forum bet the folks are proud of you!!!!

****edit

Im not trying to make ppl form an opinion was just tossing out my 2 cents personally idc that null ores are less valuable makes me happy when i build and sell things
celebro
Ember Inc.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#270 - 2012-10-04 07:17:13 UTC
Cap James Tkirk wrote:

Im not trying to make ppl form an opinion was just tossing out my 2 cents personally idc that null ores are less valuable makes me happy when i build and sell things


I'm Just curious to know what has ore prices got to do with building and selling stuff?


I don't understand why people like to say, this is solely a player driven economy. It is only correct to say it is partly driven by players. The environment and game mechanics has still got a lot to do with prices, and that is controlled by CCP.

The ore imbalance is pretty obvious and the new mining changes are a way to counter it, these changes set as an example proves that the developers also change the economy, just wait a few months from now.
Herr Hammer Draken
#271 - 2012-10-04 07:37:28 UTC
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:
The issue at hand is Risk vs. Reward - and this is a system that needs to be monitored and adjusted by CCP as outcomes to their system that they don't forsee arise.

It's interesting to see that there are still people who believe the current mineral prices are completely driven by player activities and completely ignore the changes to the game that drove those changes. The players are reacting to a change CCP made to other systems, and due to the complexity of eve an unfortunate outcome has arisen. Its players that place the buy/sell orders but its CCP that creates the system that drives the players.

Here is a relative value chart of ores based on current prices. The value is relative to the lowest valued ore. The numbers come from a break down of the mineral componenents of each ore type and are updated based on mineral values. I use this tool to tell me what to mine on a given day.

Take note that mining High End Scordite is just as valuable as Standard Arkonor.
Quote:

261.3% Veldspar
301.8% Scordite
293.8% Pyroxeres
299.7% Plagioclase
187.9% Omber
286.7% Kernite
298.5% Jaspet
301.2% Hemorphite
315.0% Hedbergite
116.6% Gneiss
216.4% Dark Ochre
100.0% Spodumain
230.5% Crockite
248.5% Bistot
339.8% Arkonor


Here is the same chart with prices from Pre-Incursion / Drone Nerf / T1 Loot revamp. The skew is towards the nullsec ores maintining a reasonable risk-reward scale.

Quote:

106.7% Veldspar
106.3% Scordite
137.7% Pyroxeres
100.0% Plagioclase
100.1% Omber
126.3% Kernite
186.9% Jaspet
209.5% Hemorphite
214.0% Hedbergite
122.2% Gneiss
190.7% Dark Ochre
108.2% Spodumain
251.8% Crockite
292.3% Bistot
382.4% Arkonor


edit * Actually this second value scale is really a perfect example of how it should look. Even the low-sec ores provide a benefit to the miner, but not quite as much as the nullsec ones. And the hardest to find ore - arkonor - is the king. It was brilliant.

PS - When was the last time you used a titan fleet to aquire a mineral belt in empire the way alliances claim -1.0 truesec systems in null? So dont even try to pretend nullsec mining is less work.


The only idea your chart proves is that market forces are driving up the cost of high sec ores.
Now what you the player have to decide, is what are you going to do about it?

CCP is not the answer. They removed on purpose, the items in game that had been negatively impacting market forces on minerals in eve. Now you see the natural market forces at work. Real supply meets real demand.
I can also back that up as I am an industrialist that has been using minerals to build items for 5 months now.
I do find that the following minerals are in short supply and are in fact hard for me to get enough of in a timely maner.
Pyerite, trit, mex, and recently isogen has become hard to find. However when I need to buy nocxium or zydrine or megacyte I can always get enough volume of these at a cheap price at multiple locations in high sec.

What your chart tells me is that your mining ops need to focus on those ores that are over the 250% level.
Also factor in the cost to operate in those areas and market those ores. Then mine those ores that have a good return.
Of course the more efficient the mining ops become in getting the desired product to market the cheaper that product gets as supply meets or exceeds demand. Your chart should tell you what you do not want to believe that high sec is not mining these ores efficiently enough to meet the market demand. In fact my buying of these products over the last 5 months supports that conclusion.

If all the null sec ore supply was used up which is what us builders do. Then how much high sec ore would have to be made available at the same time to meet the construction needs of the products being built. And this is where the supply chain breaks down. The match is off. Not enough high sec ore is being refined to match up with the amount of refined null sec ore that reaches the market place. Thus we are always buying out exsisting stocks faster than they get replenished and the next batch comes out at a higher price because there is no stock to compete with that is for sale.

I do not have to inform you of the way BPO's scale up the use of high sec minerals to low sec mineral use to build an item.
So for every unit of megacyte that gets mined we need something like 1,000 units of mex and 10,000 units of pyerite and 70,000 units of trit. In order to balance the market. That is the demand on the high sec minerals. It is not being met. So the value rises. Or the builders build less we only build when the high sec ores become available which means we need a lot less null sec ores. Which means they pile up in the markets.

Now you want players to consider you to be a smart person. Hmm so why don't you follow the risk reward and move your mining ops to where the money is? That is what all this is about getting the markets balanced. Your chart proves they are not balanced partly that is your fault as a miner. You are not following the market like you should be.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Herr Hammer Draken
#272 - 2012-10-04 10:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Hammer Draken
Let me add to my above post as it was too long.

Most builders are in high sec. I can mine my own high sec ore. Often when I can not buy enough to fill my needs I am out mining my own high sec ore. So assuming the reader is intelligent then you know where I am going with this. What kind of pricing power does the high sec miner have when these minerals can be mined by anyone right here in high sec? High sec builders are really only hostage to null sec miners. They have pricing power.

All the blame in this entire thread is backwards. It is the vast oversupply of null ores that is the cause of this ore price imbalance.

Consider also all the proganker posts over the last 45 days or so, reference the new mining barges. They all claim to a man that the new barges are almost gank proof so they claim this will lead to out of control mining of high sec and vast oversupplied high sec ores which will drive the prices way down. The message of those posts is that the gankers are needed in high sec to control the miners so that the price stays up and the remaining miners can make a living in high sec.

Hmm well if the prices crash for high sec ores then that is exactly what the null sec miner needs right?
So given all of these factors the new barges and the builders can mine their own high sec ores and the lack of effective gankers why is it then that the high sec miners still have pricing power over their ores and the null sec miner does not?

Yes that is how bad the imbalance is right now. I do not think the situation will change until high sec doubles the number of miners they have. Or null halves the number they have. What makes the balance work is the BPO materials cost.
As of right now the only source for those minerals is mining and reprocessing of mission loot. Perhaps mission loot is suppling more noxcium and zydrine and megacyte than it should. But I do not do much of that so I have no clue really.

Notice also the trend CCP's rebalanced BPO's extra materials requirements are slanted toward using a lot more high sec minerals and not so many more null sec minerals. Although the impact of that will not be felt for about 6 more months or so because of all of the speculation building programs.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Cap James Tkirk
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#273 - 2012-10-04 14:26:55 UTC
celebro wrote:
Cap James Tkirk wrote:

Im not trying to make ppl form an opinion was just tossing out my 2 cents personally idc that null ores are less valuable makes me happy when i build and sell things


I'm Just curious to know what has ore prices got to do with building and selling stuff?


I don't understand why people like to say, this is solely a player driven economy. It is only correct to say it is partly driven by players. The environment and game mechanics has still got a lot to do with prices, and that is controlled by CCP.

The ore imbalance is pretty obvious and the new mining changes are a way to counter it, these changes set as an example proves that the developers also change the economy, just wait a few months from now.



what i mean is like Herr said i mine my own HS materials and can get High-end minerals at low prices makes me happy as a builder ive made a decent fortune since the low-end minerals started sky-rocketing and i build stuffs to sell to ppl to blow stuffs up thus making the circle of life complete
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#274 - 2012-10-04 20:59:37 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
~moronic pubbie post~


Industry that is non-highsec is broken your points are invalid.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Herr Hammer Draken
#275 - 2012-10-05 05:21:18 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
~moronic pubbie post~


Industry that is non-highsec is broken your points are invalid.


That statement implies that non-highsec industry was functional at some point over the last 9 years.
And somehow became broken. Which is not the case. Industry that is non-highsec was designed that way and has been that way for years.

Therefore you are irrelevant to this discussion. Until such time as industry in non-high sec becomes functional.
If that ever happens. Then it can become relevant.

This discussion is not about a fantasy eve. It is about the real and current present eve.

All of my points are about the current eve model which is the only eve we have.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Pipa Porto
#276 - 2012-10-05 05:58:40 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
That statement implies that non-highsec industry was functional at some point over the last 9 years.
And somehow became broken. Which is not the case. Industry that is non-highsec was designed that way and has been that way for years.


So you're saying that anything CCP hasn't bothered to fix in years is not broken? Simply because CCP hasn't bothered to fix it.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Herr Hammer Draken
#277 - 2012-10-05 06:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Hammer Draken
Pipa Porto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
That statement implies that non-highsec industry was functional at some point over the last 9 years.
And somehow became broken. Which is not the case. Industry that is non-highsec was designed that way and has been that way for years.


So you're saying that anything CCP hasn't bothered to fix in years is not broken? Simply because CCP hasn't bothered to fix it.


I am saying it is your opinion that it is broken. CCP designed it the way it is. The reasons for which players think they know the answer to and often times this is all misdirection and misinformation. Just like your post is.
Until CCP brings forth a proposal to fix something I do not consider it to be broken but a game design feature. Regardless of who ever claims it to be different. Everybody always has a hidden initiative.

So I do not buy into Non-high sec industry is broken. That is a fantasy viewpoint of people that want change. Until that change is on the table it is fantasy and does not belong in disscussion about current events.

Open a new thread about fixing non high sec industry and if it gets CCP to "fix" it then fine then we can disscuss it there in that thread. But that is at least 6 month to a year or more from now. It does not belong in this thread until it becomes something more than fantasy.

Last this winter update has nothing in it at all about "fixing" non-high sec industry. So it remains your fantasy viewpoint in my opinion.

Let me even add that the CSM is null sec friendly. And if he has not been able to convince CCP to "fix" non high sec industry and it has been this way for 9 years ample time to get some movement on change and it has never happened then perhaps it is not as "broken" as some people think it is.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Pipa Porto
#278 - 2012-10-05 07:07:33 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
That statement implies that non-highsec industry was functional at some point over the last 9 years.
And somehow became broken. Which is not the case. Industry that is non-highsec was designed that way and has been that way for years.


So you're saying that anything CCP hasn't bothered to fix in years is not broken? Simply because CCP hasn't bothered to fix it.


I am saying it is your opinion that it is broken. CCP designed it the way it is. The reasons for which players think they know the answer to and often times this is all misdirection and misinformation. Just like your post is.
Until CCP brings forth a proposal to fix something I do not consider it to be broken but a game design feature. Regardless of who ever claims it to be different. Everybody always has a hidden initiative.


Here are CCP's goals for fixing nullsec industry, so by your little rule there, Nullsec industry is broken. Has been for a year. By your definition.
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=946

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Herr Hammer Draken
#279 - 2012-10-05 07:14:16 UTC
Oh aug 2011. I can hardly wait for it.....Maybe by 2015, 2020?

At any rate it changes nothing about this thread.
Or the current here and now.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Pipa Porto
#280 - 2012-10-05 11:05:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Oh aug 2011. I can hardly wait for it.....Maybe by 2015, 2020?

At any rate it changes nothing about this thread.
Or the current here and now.


You claimed that Nullsec Industry wasn't broken because CCP hadn't said it was.
I showed that CCP had in fact said it was.

You post.... whatever this is.


By the way, the biggest problem with Nullsec Ore production is that the Ore is produced in fixed ratios due to the need to cycle sites to keep the industry level up. There's no "mine less Spud 'cause it's worthless," or "Mine Less Bistot*"

*Bistot is 32.2% of the Large Asteroid Cluster by volume. The Large Asteroid Cluster is generally what you cycle.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto