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Propopsed AI changes and their effect. [UPDATED]
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Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#161 - 2012-10-03 20:05:22 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

See, here is the thing, If I'm wrong about it and my fears prove unfounded, NOTHING BAD happens, nothing gets broken and everyone is happy.

If YOU knee-jerk supporters of this idea are wrong, the bad things people like me are predicting come true, then elements of CCP have to go back and fix it when they COULD be working on "the next big thing".

You are advocating recklessness and foolishness, and some of us simply pray wiser heads at CCP prevail.


But this is one of the "next big things." The new AI has been mentioned as being much more flexible and adjustable by the programmers and content people.

It came out with wormholes and sleepers, with the promise of being a good upgrade for other NPC AI down the road if things turned out the way CCP hoped.

Here we are, a few years down the road, with all due caution and attention being paid, and here's you waving a red flag saying, "HOLD ON! SLOW DOWN! Let's be cautious."

How much time spent on a change is enough time for you? This one has been years in the planning. You're the one having a knee-jerk reaction to it now.

And please, by all means, drum up another specious argument or straw man attack to the people who are bothering to keep talking to you.


Wormhole AI has been tested in places with wormhole local.

I know you've never been to null-sec, but local is a pretty big deal out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#162 - 2012-10-03 20:05:37 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:


You... haven't actually read or understood anything I've posted have you.... Roll


I've read, everything you wrote, and none of it seems the least bit compelling or reasonable.

Would you like for me to do specific quotes (again)?

It's not my fault you put yourself on the wrong side of the issue, it's you at your keyboard, not me. Simply explain why, with no testing of your own of any kind you think this is a great idea AS IS and those of us advocating caution are wrong for...advocating caution.. to changes to a complex system.



What in the hell are you talking about?

I'll nutshell it for you.

The change is long overdue, but we need it on the test server as long as possible to help ensure that there are no unforseen ramifications. If PVP is purposefully going to be affected as well, thorough testing needs to be done to make sure it is still possible afterwards, even if the tactics used may need to change.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Golar Crexis
Donald Trump Real Estate
#163 - 2012-10-03 20:07:38 UTC
Capqu wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZP9NZ-I0IE&hd=1



The d-scanning and hunting shown in this video are what we consider perfect.
Targets were in d-scan range of the gate, their general direction was located before the system scan finishes and he is in warp asap.

Under the old AI he might be able to kill the oracle depending on the drake pilot. Under the new AI chances are the frigates would have been left for last as safety and the only kill would have been him.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#164 - 2012-10-03 20:08:46 UTC
Capqu wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

See, here is the thing, If I'm wrong about it and my fears prove unfounded, NOTHING BAD happens, nothing gets broken and everyone is happy.

If YOU knee-jerk supporters of this idea are wrong, the bad things people like me are predicting come true, then elements of CCP have to go back and fix it when they COULD be working on "the next big thing".

You are advocating recklessness and foolishness, and some of us simply pray wiser heads at CCP prevail.


But this is one of the "next big things." The new AI has been mentioned as being much more flexible and adjustable by the programmers and content people.

It came out with wormholes and sleepers, with the promise of being a good upgrade for other NPC AI down the road if things turned out the way CCP hoped.

Here we are, a few years down the road, with all due caution and attention being paid, and here's you waving a red flag saying, "HOLD ON! SLOW DOWN! Let's be cautious."

How much time spent on a change is enough time for you? This one has been years in the planning. You're the one having a knee-jerk reaction to it now.

And please, by all means, drum up another specious argument or straw man attack to the people who are bothering to keep talking to you.


Wormhole AI has been tested in places with wormhole local.

I know you've never been to null-sec, but local is a pretty big deal out there.


For all we know this may well go hand in glove with a change to how local in Null works.

Point being, we don't know enough about what is coming next, and it's foolish to ask for something to be dropped completely until we do.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#165 - 2012-10-03 20:11:09 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Capqu wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

See, here is the thing, If I'm wrong about it and my fears prove unfounded, NOTHING BAD happens, nothing gets broken and everyone is happy.

If YOU knee-jerk supporters of this idea are wrong, the bad things people like me are predicting come true, then elements of CCP have to go back and fix it when they COULD be working on "the next big thing".

You are advocating recklessness and foolishness, and some of us simply pray wiser heads at CCP prevail.


But this is one of the "next big things." The new AI has been mentioned as being much more flexible and adjustable by the programmers and content people.

It came out with wormholes and sleepers, with the promise of being a good upgrade for other NPC AI down the road if things turned out the way CCP hoped.

Here we are, a few years down the road, with all due caution and attention being paid, and here's you waving a red flag saying, "HOLD ON! SLOW DOWN! Let's be cautious."

How much time spent on a change is enough time for you? This one has been years in the planning. You're the one having a knee-jerk reaction to it now.

And please, by all means, drum up another specious argument or straw man attack to the people who are bothering to keep talking to you.


Wormhole AI has been tested in places with wormhole local.

I know you've never been to null-sec, but local is a pretty big deal out there.


For all we know this may well go hand in glove with a change to how local in Null works.

Point being, we don't know enough about what is coming next, and it's foolish to ask for something to be dropped completely until we do.


I'm not saying drop it completely, I'm asking them to reconsider and highlighting affects that I think they may have overlooked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#166 - 2012-10-03 20:12:22 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
What in the hell are you talking about?

I'll nutshell it for you.

The change is long overdue, but we need it on the test server as long as possible to help ensure that there are no unforseen ramifications. If PVP is purposefully going to be affected as well, thorough testing needs to be done to make sure it is still possible afterwards, even if the tactics used may need to change.


Actual results of testing have already been posted in several places, namely that rats primary the ratter-hunter as soon as he warps in. This in combination of what we already know about hunting ratters in nullsec is definitely a bad thing. Why are you still arguing about this?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#167 - 2012-10-03 20:13:10 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

See, here is the thing, If I'm wrong about it and my fears prove unfounded, NOTHING BAD happens, nothing gets broken and everyone is happy.

If YOU knee-jerk supporters of this idea are wrong, the bad things people like me are predicting come true, then elements of CCP have to go back and fix it when they COULD be working on "the next big thing".

You are advocating recklessness and foolishness, and some of us simply pray wiser heads at CCP prevail.


But this is one of the "next big things." The new AI has been mentioned as being much more flexible and adjustable by the programmers and content people.

It came out with wormholes and sleepers, with the promise of being a good upgrade for other NPC AI down the road if things turned out the way CCP hoped.

Here we are, a few years down the road, with all due caution and attention being paid, and here's you waving a red flag saying, "HOLD ON! SLOW DOWN! Let's be cautious."

How much time spent on a change is enough time for you? This one has been years in the planning. You're the one having a knee-jerk reaction to it now.

And please, by all means, drum up another specious argument or straw man attack to the people who are bothering to keep talking to you.


How Dense can someone be.

What we are talking about here is CCP tacking on new AI to old content. This is simply not a good idea. Incursions and wormholes were MADE with the AI in mind, The Blockade and Dread Guristas Fleet Staging Point (along with littlery thousands of other pieces of game content) weren't

So, a better plan is to, instead of shoehorning new AI into complex and diverse old content, make new content and phse out old AI or reform the old content so it all fits.

Don't know why this idea is so controversial with you types, it's smart design practice.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#168 - 2012-10-03 20:14:22 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:


You... haven't actually read or understood anything I've posted have you.... Roll


I've read, everything you wrote, and none of it seems the least bit compelling or reasonable.

Would you like for me to do specific quotes (again)?

It's not my fault you put yourself on the wrong side of the issue, it's you at your keyboard, not me. Simply explain why, with no testing of your own of any kind you think this is a great idea AS IS and those of us advocating caution are wrong for...advocating caution.. to changes to a complex system.



What in the hell are you talking about?

I'll nutshell it for you.

The change is long overdue, but we need it on the test server as long as possible to help ensure that there are no unforseen ramifications. If PVP is purposefully going to be affected as well, thorough testing needs to be done to make sure it is still possible afterwards, even if the tactics used may need to change.



Well, im glad you came around somewhat to our position.

Would you like for me to link all your posts that say the opposite of this?
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#169 - 2012-10-03 20:22:27 UTC
Meh, I'm already upset a bit about my profession going out the window (vulture), don't really care anymore.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#170 - 2012-10-03 20:35:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
What in the hell are you talking about?

I'll nutshell it for you.

The change is long overdue, but we need it on the test server as long as possible to help ensure that there are no unforseen ramifications. If PVP is purposefully going to be affected as well, thorough testing needs to be done to make sure it is still possible afterwards, even if the tactics used may need to change.


Quote:
Well, im glad you came around somewhat to our position.

Would you like for me to link all your posts that say the opposite of this?


Let me help you out there friend:
Quote:
Then understand this.

I have a character that made (and occasionally still does) quite a hobby out of jumping ratters of various types in Null solo in a stealth bomber. He has done this litterally for years.

I'm not concerned about these changes.... interested yes, but not concerned. I'll test them out when they become available for serious testing on the test server, I'll give constructive feed back, I'll try various tactics and different methodogy as necessary, and we'll see how this all shakes out.

Thats kind of the point to having a test server.


Quote:
Yeah, you guys actually are running in a blind panic before proper testing has started in any meaningful way. Until people have had a chance to work with this awhile the only real support you are going to get is from the local forum trolls feeding on your fear.

Relax, observe, test... we'll go from there.


Quote:
Nobody said worry about it once it hits TQ, except possibly in the echoing chambers of your own mind.

It's been said, repeatedly, it will need time spent in serious testing on the test server.


Quote:
People ARE thinking about this issue critically, and have expressed the desire to explore the ramifications (both good and bad) from this change by testing it completely over time... as opposed to jumping to conclusions based on a very brief testing window.


I think that about covers it champ.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#171 - 2012-10-03 20:42:41 UTC
Capqu wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
And please, by all means, drum up another specious argument or straw man attack to the people who are bothering to keep talking to you.


Wormhole AI has been tested in places with wormhole local.

I know you've never been to null-sec, but local is a pretty big deal out there.


Yawn.

That's the best you could do?

Seriously, man up and think of a new way to catch and kill the unaware. You already said that ratters that are paying attention have plenty of time to escape. (And yes, they do. It's why living in low/null sec not as hard as people think). The only ones you're going to catch are the ones that aren't paying close attention. Therefore the speed and size advantages of the stealth bomber aren't necessary. That leaves you with targeting delay on decloak, and there are rigs for that.

Is it perfect? No. But neither is tackling anything in a stealth bomber to start with.


I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Medarr
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#172 - 2012-10-03 21:21:02 UTC
Robert De'Arneth wrote:
Gun Gal wrote:
Its good, but I see your whine.

You are sad that you cannot take advantage of all the aggro being on the ratter, with you to soak him as well


The new system will make you possible a target as well.

Perfect! Lets face it, it is a bad game mechanic that let that happen in the first place, and you should be a target, after all the enemy hates you too.

Suck it up princess



Not often you see the most perfect response to someone crying like a little baby, but I think this thread can die, no one can respond better then this.


+1
Zeomebuch Nova
Undrinkable Grog Inc.
#173 - 2012-10-03 22:05:34 UTC
Do we need to use more brain cells before ganking nao? IMPOSIBRU!
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#174 - 2012-10-03 22:13:52 UTC
Site ganks in WHs happen ALL the time and sleepers have always have this kind of AI so I don't see this as much of an issue.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Golar Crexis
Donald Trump Real Estate
#175 - 2012-10-03 22:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Golar Crexis
Jack Miton wrote:
Site ganks in WHs happen ALL the time and sleepers have always have this kind of AI so I don't see this as much of an issue.


Yeah.....

Let me just highlight the part I found most relevant.

So while I respect wormholers and the hijinks they get up to, I believe you guys have it easy. No Local, no intel channels and no jumpbridges for that home def fleet chasing you.

But hey thanks for posting man.
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#176 - 2012-10-03 22:31:47 UTC
I'm trying really hard to have sympathy for the gankers here, I really am, but I would rather have the new AI implemented and their concerns be address after all the PVE missioner tears clear (and they will... "WTF? My Drones!") than to delay it because of a few people being unhappy from the nerf.

I will follow that up by mentioning that I have been on the receiving ends of enough nerfs that I have almost no sympathy for anybody getting nerfed. In the past I was running back from SiSi screaming that the changes were going to cause issues and it fell on deaf ears (unified inventory). So, don't worry, they'll fix it in the long run and it wont be like the old times, but they will tell you it is.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
Golar Crexis
Donald Trump Real Estate
#177 - 2012-10-03 22:38:22 UTC
MadMuppet wrote:
I'm trying really hard to have sympathy for the gankers here, I really am, but I would rather have the new AI implemented and their concerns be address after all the PVE missioner tears clear (and they will... "WTF? My Drones!") than to delay it because of a few people being unhappy from the nerf.

I will follow that up by mentioning that I have been on the receiving ends of enough nerfs that I have almost no sympathy for anybody getting nerfed. In the past I was running back from SiSi screaming that the changes were going to cause issues and it fell on deaf ears (unified inventory). So, don't worry, they'll fix it in the long run and it wont be like the old times, but they will tell you it is.


We are not against the changes. We are against the consequences they have for our profession and all other professions that revolve around being a new player in a cheap ship in a npc heavy environment.

Ninja salvaging
mission baiting
awoxing
and of course hunting down null-sec ratters in their space and killing them
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#178 - 2012-10-03 23:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrl Tian
Obviously, the NPCs want an easy kill as much as the gankers do, that's why they'd attack a frig over that BS that's been soaking up their best damage for five minutes (CCP, can we get NPC killboards? I want to see CONCORD'S list in particular).

And yeah, if CCP keeps nerfing/flat out removing methods of piracy, how do they expect the bounty hunting profession to take off this winter if there's no rich carebears getting victimized out there?
Golar Crexis
Donald Trump Real Estate
#179 - 2012-10-04 00:18:26 UTC
Karrl Tian wrote:
Obviously, the NPCs want an easy kill as much as the gankers do, that's why they'd attack a frig over that BS that's been soaking up their best damage for five minutes (CCP, can we get NPC killboards? I want to see CONCORD'S list in particular).

And yeah, if CCP keeps nerfing/flat out removing methods of piracy, how do they expect the bounty hunting profession to take off this winter if there's no rich carebears getting victimized out there?


I believe there already are npc killboards. Its pretty funny seeing some of the **** that dies (like my shitfit dominix) to rats
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#180 - 2012-10-04 04:44:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Spc One wrote:
I will tell you what will happen, people will stop doing missions and go for incursions and wormholes.
Why ? because in the end it doesn't matter what you do missions anomalies incursions or wormholes.

Why not do incursions for example when you can get more isk than in missions ?

So missions will not be done anymore everyone will do incursions.
Roll

Because if you read the thread/dev blog/tested for yourself, you'd see that they're not changing NPC abilities (tank, numbers, firepower). They're only changing NPC behavior. So good luck taking your meta-fit CNR into a vanguard alone. Or for that matter, any type of wormhole. I'm sure that high-sec mission bears just can't wait to take their crap into an environment equivalent to a prison shower with mandatory blindfolds.

No, this change will in fact drastically increase mission-running, because now the runners will have near-immunity to ninja salvagers and flip baiters. It's the other side of the coin to the death sentences for petty thieves they have planned in Crimewatch, since mission areas are usually devoid of any players except the mission runners themselves. High-sec pvp immunity is the goal here. Solo stealth bomber pvp in null is just an unfortunate casualty.

Not alone, with whole fleet.
As i said before if you're in t-1 ship and you loose all your drones to new AI and you're scrambled by npc, you're stuck in mission.