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Buff Ganking--Nevermind, Nerfed Again

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Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#81 - 2012-10-02 23:10:39 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

Everyone else in Eve besides miners has a legitimate risk intervening between them and profit.

The recent buff removed the risk to mining.

The consequences are already visible in the market.

Everyone else has risk. What does a miner risk now, after the buff?

Maybe he risks flying the wrong ship?

MinerMan is ALWAYS at risk. YOU CAN still gank him. YOU have decided that YOUR risk is no longer viable. MinerMan simply saw the cross being carried by someone else instead of them.

I will concede that forum whining on ganking might have tipped the scales on this topic. If that's so, maybe we're all missing ONE KEY POINT.

CCP had the numbers. Numbers may have said fix this.

Now ask yourself, how many lost subs CCP have to wear if all the gankers ragequit? Care to guess?

Maybe we need to be asking whether there is any correlation between rising subs and rising logins SINCE the "fix". I dunno.

Like I said, CCP have the numbers.


Look, MINERMAN could have MINED in safety pre-buff by MINING aligned or with a tank or in low or in null or with friends. Roll

MINERMAN pitched a fit on the forums instead. MINERMAN got what MINERMAN wanted. CCP have the numbers. I respect MINERMAN'S accomplishment. It proves that a steady stream of whine will indeed have an impact. However, I'm concerned for the long-term health of the game at least as much as I'm interested in a quick shot in the arm to CCP's bottom line.

Now, we're going to see new numbers emerge. I continue to assert that the decrease in pressure on high-sec miners (hello, new terribad aggression mechanics, i'm looking at you) are probably going to have a continued deflationary effect on the prices for low-end materials and ice products available in high-sec. No numbers are needed. We can work with abstracts and variables. All one needs to have is an understanding of which side of the dividion sign means what.

Hey, guess what! GANKERMAN has the MATHS.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#82 - 2012-10-02 23:24:46 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

Look, MINERMAN could have MINED in safety pre-buff by MINING aligned or with a tank or in low or in null or with friends. Roll

Not going to go down this road.

For point friend, when you tell MinerMan that, you cut into HIS profits and he had to swallow the bad-pill while you had a risk-free, PROFITABLE venture.

I can understand your angst, but really, we're just seeing exact same from the OTHER SIDE of the coin.

Darth Gustav wrote:

...are probably going to have a continued deflationary effect on the prices for low-end materials and ice products available in high-sec.

Darth

The prices have been MUCH LESS than (half of current) many times and for very prolonged periods. Eve still Eve.

You really want to keep prices up - maybe you need to increase DEMAND which is what RL economists suggest you do to increase prices (when you don't have the monopoly).

So go blow stuff up.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#83 - 2012-10-02 23:30:31 UTC
Highsec should be for those not interested in PvP. For those that are interested in PvP, you've got pretty much the entire universe to play in. Oh but wait.... don't the players there tend to shoot back?? Shocked

The truth of the matter is that highsec gankers are afraid of losing their easy-mode. Where else can you get crazy rewards for zero risk? Long as your ganking something worth more than your ships, then your sorted! Whats more, Highsec is the only place where their targets don't shoot back! They've come to enjoy their one-sided PvP. So one sided in fact, i personally don't even see it as PvP. They resist all changes that threaten their way of life, with no regard to EvE as a whole.

I applaud CCP for crimewatch changes, and the new bounty system. For too long the scum of eve has forced itself on those unwilling or uninterested in PvP. I personally think they've done more to harm EvE's continued growth and development than anything else. The creation of their little niche of risk-free cowardly highsec ganking leaves little incentive for players to make the natural progression to low or null space. All so these L33T PvP masters (sarcasm!) can get their risk-free kills to look all awesome on their sad little killboards.

Perhaps with these changes they'll return to the depths of lawless space for some real PvP. But, could they handle EvE with easy-mode turned off?? Only time will tell.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#84 - 2012-10-02 23:32:07 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

Look, MINERMAN could have MINED in safety pre-buff by MINING aligned or with a tank or in low or in null or with friends. Roll

Not going to go down this road.

For point friend, when you tell MinerMan that, you cut into HIS profits and he had to swallow the bad-pill while you had a risk-free, PROFITABLE venture.

I can understand your angst, but really, we're just seeing exact same from the OTHER SIDE of the coin.

Darth Gustav wrote:

...are probably going to have a continued deflationary effect on the prices for low-end materials and ice products available in high-sec.

Darth

The prices have been MUCH LESS than (half of current) many times and for very prolonged periods. Eve still Eve.

You really want to keep prices up - maybe you need to increase DEMAND which is what RL economists suggest you do to increase prices (when you don't have the monopoly).

So go blow stuff up.



That's what I do. We agree on something, finally.

Look, I hope you can realize I'm not saying I don't sympathize with miners. I do.

But it doesn't change what I think of their role in Eve's economy/ecology.

I remember the days before the buff to shuttle marketeering. Which wound up being a buff to miners, too.

Back then people mined Omber, Scordite, and Plagioclase much, much more than Veldspar. I know. That's the time period during which I found myself a member of the "mining community." We preferred Omber to Scordite. I think I remember Plagioclase being a really yummy high-sec ore back then. Most of the Veld rocks went largely unmined. In fact, when the shuttle nerf occurred, they also took Veldspar out of 1.0 space (maybe 0.9 too, I can't recall at the moment).

Left as-is, this system will go well past the old artificial ISK ceiling that Trit (and to a lesser degree pyerite) observed.

Shuttles are no longer NPC sell orders. That means there isn't a fail-safe anymore.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#85 - 2012-10-02 23:34:26 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Highsec should be for those not interested in PvP.
No, it really shouldn't, unless you mean that highsec should be removed from the game.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#86 - 2012-10-03 01:36:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Tippia wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
Highsec should be for those not interested in PvP.
No, it really shouldn't, unless you mean that highsec should be removed from the game.

Maybe .. that would be the best for EVE. Ahaha, not really. Actually they should remove PVP.

Let's not be too extreme, what about just removing ganking, it shouldn't be profitable, but it somehow is when morons cram stuff into their freighters/T1 untanked autopiloting haulers.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#87 - 2012-10-03 05:24:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Things are not balanced by cost


Are you saying that ganker should be able to profitable gank my ship if I tank my ship properly (this means I use money and cost goes up)?


If said ship is carrying stuff worth more than you can tank then yes.



Let's say I use two A-Type EANMs to tank* my Damnation. Of course I will have full HG Slave set plugged in but you probably guessed that already.

* = plus all usual plates and rigs too.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-10-03 05:27:06 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Things are not balanced by cost


Are you saying that ganker should be able to profitable gank my ship if I tank my ship properly (this means I use money and cost goes up)?


If said ship is carrying stuff worth more than you can tank then yes.



Let's say I use two A-Type EANMs to tank my Damnation. Of course I will have full HG Slave set plugged in but you probably guessed that already.


a-type EANMs cost 500x as much as T2 EANMs and they're great at making you a worthwhile gank target

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-10-03 05:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Andski wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Things are not balanced by cost


Are you saying that ganker should be able to profitable gank my ship if I tank my ship properly (this means I use money and cost goes up)?


If said ship is carrying stuff worth more than you can tank then yes.



Let's say I use two A-Type EANMs to tank my Damnation. Of course I will have full HG Slave set plugged in but you probably guessed that already.


a-type EANMs cost 500x as much as T2 EANMs and they're great at making you a worthwhile gank target


Do you mean this 700k EHP ship?

[Damnation, loot piñata]

1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Energized Thermic Membrane II

[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense II
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Slave Alpha
Slave Beta
Slave Gamma
Slave Delta
Slave Epsilon
Slave Omega
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#90 - 2012-10-03 05:33:51 UTC
Andski wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Things are not balanced by cost


Are you saying that ganker should be able to profitable gank my ship if I tank my ship properly (this means I use money and cost goes up)?


If said ship is carrying stuff worth more than you can tank then yes.



Let's say I use two A-Type EANMs to tank my Damnation. Of course I will have full HG Slave set plugged in but you probably guessed that already.


a-type EANMs cost 500x as much as T2 EANMs and they're great at making you a worthwhile gank target

Which clarifies a point I made earlier - there was time when the only half decent tank on a Hulk (for example) was Gistii B.

That MADE you a target which is sorta counter-intuitive.

But an exhumers tank was NEVER to prevent the gank, it was to prevent the rat.

Gankers CHANGED the ROLE of the exhumer. Buff was needed to counter the new ROLE it was placed into.

When one makes ones bed........

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#91 - 2012-10-03 05:50:20 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Do you mean this 700k EHP ship?

[Damnation, loot piñata]

1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Energized Thermic Membrane II

[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense II
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Slave Alpha
Slave Beta
Slave Gamma
Slave Delta
Slave Epsilon
Slave Omega


How much ISK value do you cram in the cargo hold? 700k is what? 4 charon worth of EHP or something like that. If you cram enough value in it, there probably is a way to make it worthwhile.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#92 - 2012-10-03 05:54:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
a-type EANMs cost 500x as much as T2 EANMs and they're great at making you a worthwhile gank target.


Which clarifies a point I made earlier - there was time when the only half decent tank on a Hulk (for example) was Gistii B.

That MADE you a target which is sorta counter-intuitive.

But an exhumers tank was NEVER to prevent the gank, it was to prevent the rat.

Gankers CHANGED the ROLE of the exhumer. Buff was needed to counter the new ROLE it was placed into.

When one makes ones bed........


No it didn't. Roll They always had the option of mining aligned, paying attention, and warping out when somebody not blue or green landed on grid. Odds of escape? Over 99:1 if you are competent and paying attention.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#93 - 2012-10-03 06:26:45 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
How much ISK value do you cram in the cargo hold? 700k is what? 4 charon worth of EHP or something like that. If you cram enough value in it, there probably is a way to make it worthwhile.


Are you saying over 2 billion in modules and 2 billion in implants isn't enough?

A bunch of boring people...
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#94 - 2012-10-03 06:30:09 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
captain foivos wrote:
Retribution is all about balancing ships and what not, so why not balance out ganking a bit while you're at it? Over the last eight years, ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals continuing to separate stupid highsec mongoloids from their precious shiny things. Why not buff immoral activity for a change? Reward smart people for taking basic precautions against dying and loss, like not traveling around with billions in their hold, not clicking on the contracts in Jita local, and not traveling the Rancer Pipe with hundreds of PLEX in the cargo bay.

Ganking keeps getting hit with more and more nerfs: pretty soon there won't be that "cold harsh universe" left that CCP keeps going on about in their promos. EVE belongs to the violent, the venal, and the brilliant. Buff ganking. Nerf dumb people.


Stupid OP is stupid.

The only way I would agree with this is if Hi-Sec was made completely 100% safe. No ganking, no griefing, no spamming, no scamming - nothing. Let Null & Low-Sec be the Wild West.

Care Bears should be able to mission away to their little hearts are content in completely safety, free from the actions of dicks that just want to f*ck them over.


You should read what James 315 has to say on this subject. It would absolutely kill EVE Online by killing what makes it different from every other theme park. Why should they have a safe place to hide? You act as though they're entitled to it, why??? Oh, so noobs don't get pissed and leave because they can't hang? Good riddance. You can't handle the sandbox, you don't belong in EVE, chicken-sh!t carebears will ruin our game if we let them. They say go to null, we say go back to WoW.

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#95 - 2012-10-03 06:35:11 UTC
And let us not forget that carebears vastly outnumber gankers. It was once a career! Not its just a hobby...

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#96 - 2012-10-03 06:37:14 UTC
Galaxy Pig wrote:
And let us not forget that carebears vastly outnumber gankers. It was once a career! Not its just a hobby...

Totally not empty quoting. This guy is right.

We are outnumbered. The more reason to buff ganking. We are endangered...

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-10-03 06:44:49 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
captain foivos wrote:
Retribution is all about balancing ships and what not, so why not balance out ganking a bit while you're at it? Over the last eight years, ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals continuing to separate stupid highsec mongoloids from their precious shiny things. Why not buff immoral activity for a change? Reward smart people for taking basic precautions against dying and loss, like not traveling around with billions in their hold, not clicking on the contracts in Jita local, and not traveling the Rancer Pipe with hundreds of PLEX in the cargo bay.

Ganking keeps getting hit with more and more nerfs: pretty soon there won't be that "cold harsh universe" left that CCP keeps going on about in their promos. EVE belongs to the violent, the venal, and the brilliant. Buff ganking. Nerf dumb people.



I suggest a bigg increase in destroyer DPS, and a new range of battlecruisers than can fit 8 bonused large guns. That ought to do it.


Maybe increase the alpha of artillery, and decrease the fitting requirements of hybrids, just to make sure.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#98 - 2012-10-03 07:13:33 UTC
Anya Ohaya wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
captain foivos wrote:
Retribution is all about balancing ships and what not, so why not balance out ganking a bit while you're at it? Over the last eight years, ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals continuing to separate stupid highsec mongoloids from their precious shiny things. Why not buff immoral activity for a change? Reward smart people for taking basic precautions against dying and loss, like not traveling around with billions in their hold, not clicking on the contracts in Jita local, and not traveling the Rancer Pipe with hundreds of PLEX in the cargo bay.

Ganking keeps getting hit with more and more nerfs: pretty soon there won't be that "cold harsh universe" left that CCP keeps going on about in their promos. EVE belongs to the violent, the venal, and the brilliant. Buff ganking. Nerf dumb people.



I suggest a bigg increase in destroyer DPS, and a new range of battlecruisers than can fit 8 bonused large guns. That ought to do it.


Maybe increase the alpha of artillery, and decrease the fitting requirements of hybrids, just to make sure.

It almost sounds like you don't like the idea of making more ISK if you're successful. Roll

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#99 - 2012-10-03 07:39:58 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
And let us not forget that carebears vastly outnumber gankers. It was once a career! Not its just a hobby...

Totally not empty quoting. This guy is right.

We are outnumbered. The more reason to buff ganking. We are endangered...

When you COULD gank it made **** all difference.

Which bit haven't I got yet?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
TharOkha
0asis Group
#100 - 2012-10-03 08:21:06 UTC
Nothing more than cry for easy targets, Big smile Lol, do you know that you can still gank? But instead of cheap catalyst you need to fit more expensive (but still relative cheap) Talos or Tornado. And crimewatch? You comit a crime, you will be hunted. No more risk-free ganking. Bounty office will finaly have a purpose. Not as nowadays as ego advertising service.

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell