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[Winter] Combat Cruisers

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Alara IonStorm
#221 - 2012-10-02 19:51:44 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Correct me if a am wrong but ships with the attack role are supposed to be high damage low tank, and combat are supposed to be moderate damage and high tank. So my pondering is why gallente is the way it is, for example
Frigates:
Tristran: Combat role, drone tracking and hp bonus, hybrid tracking bonus.
Incursus: Attack role, hybrid damage bonus, local armor rep bonus

Cruisers:
Vexor: Combat role, Drone damage and hp bonus, hybrid damage bonus
Thorax: Attack role, hybrid damage bonus, hybrid tracking bonus

So what is this?

Atron Attack Attack
Tristan Combat role
Incursus Combat role
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#222 - 2012-10-02 19:59:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I, for one, will be flying Quad Light Beam Laser Omen all day erry day.


What.

As they are now, they track about as well and have similar multifrequency and damage to Focused Medium Pulses, but are a little easier to fit, requiring less CPU, but more PG. After this...
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Alongside the announcement of these ships, we're also proposing some adjustment to the fitting requirements of certain medium sized turrets which will help us keep the fittings of several ships within better ranges as we go forward:
-Drop the powergrid usage of Focused Medium Pulse lasers by 5%
-Drop the powergrid usage of Heavy Pulse lasers by 10%
-Drop the powergrid usage of all cruiser sized beam lasers by 10%
-Drop the powergrid usage of all cruiser sized artillery by 10%

They will be even easier to fit with the reduced PG. Note that, as is, fitting a couple metastasis rigs puts their tracking between 220mm and 425mm autocannons, which is not bad for something with 6 km optimal range.

Combine that with all the Omen's new fittings, and you will be able to get a nice tank, tackle, and now 40m^3 drones (because frigates suck), all on a somewhat fast cruiser with the full range flexibility of lasers.

That, and QLBLs look friggin badass.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#223 - 2012-10-02 20:00:29 UTC
Obsidiana wrote:
It just is annoying because every other ship in the class can fit a full 3 slot tackle.


The Moa can too whats your point?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#224 - 2012-10-02 20:09:43 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
As they are now, they track about as well and have similar multifrequency and damage to Focused Medium Pulses, but are a little easier to fit, requiring less CPU, but more PG.

...

Note that, as is, fitting a couple metastasis rigs puts their tracking between 220mm and 425mm autocannons, which is not bad for something with 6 km optimal range.


Beams look sweet, I agree but ... I guess you're planning on surprising frigates that think they can get under your guns?

Quad Light Beams can't Scorch though. Their range is about the same with Aurora loaded but the tracking and dps sucks compared to FMPs. Scorch gets 42% more dps and 0.084 rad/sec tracking. Aurora gets 0.025 rad/sec.
Aaron Greil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#225 - 2012-10-02 20:09:49 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Fre@king h8ers. They have no real reason to hate other than the ship is MInmatar so it must be overpowered. They don't look @ the fact many other ships are being boosted by alot. They tend not to look @ thier benifits or how they would stack agains the Rupture and many of them will beat the ship. Frack it! Lets h8 and nerf that b!tch because you no that h0e is overpowered = /

@ kiting 3 other ships will be better than the Rupture. Up close 4 other ships will be better than the Rupture. The Rupture may up being number 1 @ not being great @ anything but good enough @ everything = / OMG the Rupture is faster than other combat cruisers. Well it is now and should be because it's weak compared to a vexor close range and weak compared to a bellicose, caracal and omen long range.

Also, I like how people in other threads were going on about why Caldari seem to make it out of all these boost with near overpwoered ships and Gallente don't.


It so happens Gallente have a near overpowered ship and now people are b!tching about how underderpowered the Caldari ship is...


that post gave me cancer
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#226 - 2012-10-02 20:19:34 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
As they are now, they track about as well and have similar multifrequency and damage to Focused Medium Pulses, but are a little easier to fit, requiring less CPU, but more PG.

...

Note that, as is, fitting a couple metastasis rigs puts their tracking between 220mm and 425mm autocannons, which is not bad for something with 6 km optimal range.


Beams look sweet, I agree but ... I guess you're planning on surprising frigates that think they can get under your guns?

Quad Light Beams can't Scorch though. Their range is about the same with Aurora loaded but the tracking and dps sucks compared to FMPs. Scorch gets 42% more dps and 0.084 rad/sec tracking. Aurora gets 0.025 rad/sec.



I'm not sure what I'd be trying to hit at 20 km with Aurora as an Omen that I'd miss with 0.025, given its speed. That is, that my drones wouldn't be able to handle. Stabber, maybe?

Also, this isn't really to surprise frigates so much as to free up fittings for fitting other neat things. We'll have to see how the fittings turn out. I might just end up flying FMP (but QLBLs look so cool I might just gimp my fits to use them).

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Tycho Enderas
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#227 - 2012-10-02 20:21:47 UTC
Given that the current Moa has the same bonuses as the Rokh doesn't that kind of imply that the bonuses are not the issue so much as other stats and/or issues with medium hybrids (specifically rails) in general? Granted the 25% dmg boost helps medium rails but its not a buff its a tradeoff for range.

Seems to me like the bonuses should have stayed the same but with an extra turret/high slot or a buff to medium rails.
Spr09
Gold Trimmed Stars
#228 - 2012-10-02 20:24:53 UTC
aaannndd Gallente gets the short end of the stick again. Mixed bonuses, largest sig radius, and low mobility, At least make it a full drone boat so it at least looks like it can be built into an Ishkur.
Alara IonStorm
#229 - 2012-10-02 20:33:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Tycho Enderas wrote:
Given that the current Moa has the same bonuses as the Rokh doesn't that kind of imply that the bonuses are not the issue so much as other stats

Not in the least. Give the Rokh 5-6 Large Rails instead of 8 and those bonuses and it would suck balls. For a Fleet Range Ship Dmg is usually wholly better then tank.

Tycho Enderas wrote:

Granted the 25% dmg boost helps medium rails but its not a buff its a tradeoff for range.

They should have lost a High, added a Mid and given it Dmg + Opt so it could be the worth while Rail Boat it deserved.

Tycho Enderas wrote:

or a buff to medium rails.

Beams, Rails and Artillery do not have it much better. 8 Cruisers you think they could come up with 1 Long Range designed one.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#230 - 2012-10-02 20:34:53 UTC
Tycho Enderas wrote:
Given that the current Moa has the same bonuses as the Rokh doesn't that kind of imply that the bonuses are not the issue so much as other stats and/or issues with medium hybrids (specifically rails) in general? Granted the 25% dmg boost helps medium rails but its not a buff its a tradeoff for range.

Seems to me like the bonuses should have stayed the same but with an extra turret/high slot or a buff to medium rails.



Maybe medium rails, but it's definitely the slots and the fitting. Tier 3 battleships can just fit anything they feel like. A moa can do 200 rails at best, with 1 lse, though that isn't without fitting mods. Even if it did have the fitting, it would still be massively limited by its 4 mids and inadequate capacitor.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#231 - 2012-10-02 20:36:33 UTC
Spr09 wrote:
aaannndd Gallente gets the short end of the stick again. Mixed bonuses, largest sig radius, and low mobility, At least make it a full drone boat so it at least looks like it can be built into an Ishkur.
I don't want to be rude, but you should probably stop posting. You obviously have no freaking clue wtf you are talking about. These Vexor changes make it a broken overpowered beast.
Lili Lu
#232 - 2012-10-02 20:45:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Dear Balancing Team,

I sorta can't believe what I'm seeing with some parts of this set of ships. Sad

Maller - NO DRONES WTF What? I mean even the Moa has 3 lights. Give that poor brick a drone bay of at least equal size. Would it kill ya to give it 15m3 of drones? And I think 25 would at least make it not totally suck as it will with the posted design.

Moa - It's almost like you swapped what was the expectation on the Rupture and Moa as far as high slots. I guess you didn't want to give the Moa 5 medium slots for some reason and so threw it another high. But I think I would expect 5 highs and 5 mids instead. It's not like the ship would become another Drake if it had 5 mids, and it wouldn't be another Ferox since it doesn't have an optimal bonus. And if any ship would have no drones one would expect it would be this ship, but I have no problem with a 15m3 dronebay.

Vexor - I like this one the most. I've always liked the hull anyway. I guess the only change I would like is another 25m3 of drone bay (not bandwidth). I've not been liking the higher bandwidth but only almost the same bay concept with Gallente. Afterall the Domi has a plenty of spares. Drone boats in general need sufficient room for some spares. Drones die or get lost a lot in battles. And please stop this bloated signature for gallente ships paradigm. Reduce that sig please.

Rupture - Ok, here's a pattern I was noticing, speed - Moa 195, Maller 205, Vexor 215, Rupture 240Question Shouldn't that be 225Attention People are already pointing out how it's faster than some of the attack cruisers. I know speed is the thing for Minmatar but how about sticking with the pattern. It would still be fastest combat cruiser at 225. And with 5 lows you're probably just asking for the nano'd fits if you keep that speed at 240.

I suppose I'm not so concerned with these things as I have been with the new destroyers and the frigate stats favoring the more mids (available for a TD) ships. But if there is one thing you must change with these it is giving the Maller a drone bay. THE MALLER NEEDS A FRIGGIN DRONE BAY.

Thanks, Smile

Lilu
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#233 - 2012-10-02 20:48:36 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Spr09 wrote:
aaannndd Gallente gets the short end of the stick again. Mixed bonuses, largest sig radius, and low mobility, At least make it a full drone boat so it at least looks like it can be built into an Ishkur.
I don't want to be rude, but you should probably stop posting. You obviously have no freaking clue wtf you are talking about. These Vexor changes make it a broken overpowered beast.


Noooo, it's not OP at all! Leave my pretty alone! Look at that evil, mean Rupture instead!

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#234 - 2012-10-02 20:57:53 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Spr09 wrote:
aaannndd Gallente gets the short end of the stick again. Mixed bonuses, largest sig radius, and low mobility, At least make it a full drone boat so it at least looks like it can be built into an Ishkur.
I don't want to be rude, but you should probably stop posting. You obviously have no freaking clue wtf you are talking about. These Vexor changes make it a broken overpowered beast.


Noooo, it's not OP at all! Leave my pretty alone! Look at that evil, mean Rupture instead!

-Liang



It really isn't.. The bandwith is silly and drones have absolutely terrible projection.

Its not terrible but not op either.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#235 - 2012-10-02 21:14:41 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Noooo, it's not OP at all! Leave my pretty alone! Look at that evil, mean Rupture instead!

-Liang

It really isn't.. The bandwith is silly and drones have absolutely terrible projection.

Its not terrible but not op either.
Errr.... Vexor ain't about projection. It's about getting in your face and unleashing hell. And with these changes it just does that ALOT better now. One of the the highest cruiser speeds with it's low mass and decent agility. Enough mids to sport a modest shield buffer, with plenty of lows for damage mods. Increased grid so you can slap on some Neutrons for extra love. Bandwidth is perfectly fine for it's close-range blaster assault. It's a cruiser that will be surpassing 800+dps, with a ~25K+ buffer, and still be able to tackle. That is pretty broken.

I use a Vexor all the time. It is my go-to ship for shooting people in the face. As it is now on TQ, it's pretty damn good. And I'm rather successful using it. And that's flying it with an armor tank. These proposed changes will just make it an insane killing machine.
Tinkerrbell
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#236 - 2012-10-02 21:14:44 UTC
Dear CCP
The changes are all in the right direction, things need to change for these ships to be more in line with each other. Since these ships are about Pvp, make them effective for pvp. I think these changes should be implemented, or thought about
DON'T CHANGE THE RUPTURE, improve the other 3 so they surpass it. It's the golden child no touchy.
1.Moa, Maller, Vexer need more fitting room, add 5% more power grid and cpu across the board. This change would make these ships more useful.
2. Fix the slot layout of these 2 ships, Moa, Maller
• Maller needs 4 mid slots. If you dont give it a mid slot give it 25-25 of drones or even 50-50 of drones.
• Moa needs 5 mid slots, plus 20-20 of drones or 25-25 drones.
The Maller also needs more capacitor, give it 7% more cap or make lazors more user friendly.
this should help a lot, speed is not the issue here.
sign Tinkerrbell
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#237 - 2012-10-02 21:20:07 UTC
As a primarily amarr/ caldari pilot I will comment on the Maller and Moa first, then discuss what I see in the Vexor and Rupture.

Maller.

I'm loving the change to lasers damage and the tank bonus has always been great. The powergrid increase combined with the pwg reduction on medium laser weapons, will make for a very strong fit. I would go on but there is a BIG gaping hole in the ships design, by that I mean its cap. Like the Abaddon this thing is going to drain its cap so fast. I see that you removed a high and only have 3 mids. Originally when using lasers on a Maller you use a nos to help with your cap, because you need a web in order to compete with other ships these days you don't use those mids for cap boosters. The Maller from what I'm seeing is going to be inferior on its own. A solution to this is to give it another mid or high. I'm going to push for another high, because its far more limiting than another mid, and because people will most likely use it for a medium nos it will help limit that massive tank it can have. If the Maller doesn't get the high it could definitely use drones. 20 or 25 bandwidth and dronebay.
I like the direction, but that missing high slot and or drones it is a big crippling point for the ship, almost to the point of uselessness.

Moa

Damage bonus is nice. But the slot layout seems off. 6 4 4. For a shield ship that is too few mids. With blasters as it s primary weapon I would take that extra high, and move it to the mids.
Other than that I like it.

Vexor

Love it. But I think it needs a larger drone bay. Also kinda wish it had some other bonus besides the 5% damage bonus, feels overused. Maybe a hull bonus (joking)....... actually that would be a very novel idea.... would give it more ehp but would limit its armor or shields for reps.... could be a thing.

Rupture

I see one real issue with this ship, its too fast. In eve speed is very powerful and the rupture already boasts a respectable tank, has great dps, has the second largest drone bay out this set, its not cap dependent, and can both armor and shield fit.

It can't have everything.


As a whole I think that this group leaves the most to be desired. The stats for most of these don't support their play style and role. Keep up the good work, I'll be waiting on the updates for this one.
Murl
The Buffet Assault Group
#238 - 2012-10-02 21:41:28 UTC
Love the vexor...don't change a thing!
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#239 - 2012-10-02 21:43:39 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Noooo, it's not OP at all! Leave my pretty alone! Look at that evil, mean Rupture instead!

-Liang

It really isn't.. The bandwith is silly and drones have absolutely terrible projection.

Its not terrible but not op either.
Errr.... Vexor ain't about projection. It's about getting in your face and unleashing hell. And with these changes it just does that ALOT better now. One of the the highest cruiser speeds with it's low mass and decent agility. Enough mids to sport a modest shield buffer, with plenty of lows for damage mods. Increased grid so you can slap on some Neutrons for extra love. Bandwidth is perfectly fine for it's close-range blaster assault. It's a cruiser that will be surpassing 800+dps, with a ~25K+ buffer, and still be able to tackle. That is pretty broken.

I use a Vexor all the time. It is my go-to ship for shooting people in the face. As it is now on TQ, it's pretty damn good. And I'm rather successful using it. And that's flying it with an armor tank. These proposed changes will just make it an insane killing machine.



Everything is about projection, doesn't matter if you're brawling or kiting. Projection and range controll are everything.

And 800 dps.. So i'm guessing a 20k ehp shield buffer thing with 2 2 1 drones, void and heat. So its not actually 800

First the ogres can be outrun by a space station and die fast. Hammerheads are better but also lag behind a LOT when they do the AB/MWD switch.

Doing the Same thing the Thorax can get pretty much the same dps/tank while being faster without relying as heavily on drones so meh?



The really broken thing is that there is absolutely NO reason why you should fit an 800 plate over an LSE. That is seriously broken..

And you would have to be mad to fit a medium repper.. So if you're taking GCC to fight you're going to have to do a lot of waiting, and a lot of docking.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad
#240 - 2012-10-02 21:51:59 UTC
Looking forward to double LSE ruptures. Cool

PIZZA CEO