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Mining barge rebalance
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Tycho Enderas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-10-02 20:36:57 UTC
I saw the article, I believe on mittani.com, talking about how Hulks are non-existant now. It seems to me like the terrible tank/ore hold of the Hulk makes it useless in all but the most organized mining ops. With those shortcomings shouldn't its yield superiority be better than ~10%?

The other issue is, even in a mining op (something which I have no personal experience with granted), the tradeoff between another miner (when a mackinaw carries more ore than any indy) vs a hauler. Given the barge changes I would certainly expect similar hauler changes, with all non-covops haulers getting cargo buffed and the DST getting a big EHP boost (considering the skiff can now tank like a battleship and the DSTs are meant to be tough). I think if Hulk mining yield is balanced and haulers can haul enough ore, the logical choice for group mining will almost always be Hulks.
Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#2 - 2012-10-02 20:45:53 UTC
Tycho Enderas wrote:
I saw the article, I believe on mittani.com, talking about how Hulks are non-existant now. It seems to me like the terrible tank/ore hold of the Hulk makes it useless in all but the most organized mining ops. With those shortcomings shouldn't its yield superiority be better than ~10%?

The other issue is, even in a mining op (something which I have no personal experience with granted), the tradeoff between another miner (when a mackinaw carries more ore than any indy) vs a hauler. Given the barge changes I would certainly expect similar hauler changes, with all non-covops haulers getting cargo buffed and the DST getting a big EHP boost (considering the skiff can now tank like a battleship and the DSTs are meant to be tough). I think if Hulk mining yield is balanced and haulers can haul enough ore, the logical choice for group mining will almost always be Hulks.



I think the 10% bonus is about right (maybe make it 15%) but you're right about hauling that ore. The hulk is supposed to be for fleet actions but no one said anything about only being for rorqual fleets.

I think haulers need to be revisited or the orca needs to be revisited. The orca should have a 125,000 m3 ore hold if Hulks are going to stay the way they are. Sure, it's half what the rorqual gets but the orca still can't compress ore. 125k m3 ore hold would let it comfortably support 5 hulks (IMHO).
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#3 - 2012-10-02 21:59:15 UTC
HA HA HA! Yet another one asking for the same damn thing as 50 others. CCP Specifically released it to be this way.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#4 - 2012-10-02 22:29:02 UTC
Tycho Enderas wrote:
I saw the article, I believe on mittani.com, talking about how Hulks are non-existant now. It seems to me like the terrible tank/ore hold of the Hulk makes it useless in all but the most organized mining ops. With those shortcomings shouldn't its yield superiority be better than ~10%?

The other issue is, even in a mining op (something which I have no personal experience with granted), the tradeoff between another miner (when a mackinaw carries more ore than any indy) vs a hauler. Given the barge changes I would certainly expect similar hauler changes, with all non-covops haulers getting cargo buffed and the DST getting a big EHP boost (considering the skiff can now tank like a battleship and the DSTs are meant to be tough). I think if Hulk mining yield is balanced and haulers can haul enough ore, the logical choice for group mining will almost always be Hulks.


The logical choice for group mining *IS* the Hulk. More yield is more yield, and it is 15%, not 10%.

Each Mackinaw (assuming max yield fit and a 5% implant) mines 1405m3 per minute. A Hulk with the same fit and implant mines 1624m3 per minute. A Hulk with the same fit, 5% implant and a perfect Orca booster mines 2761m3 per minute.

1 Mack: 1405m3
2 Macks: 2810m3
3 Macks: 4215m3
4 Macks: 5620m3
5 Macks: 7025m3

1 Hulk: 1624m3
2 Hulks: 3248m3
3 Hulks: 4872m3
4 Hulks: 6496m3
5 Hulks: 8120m3

1 Hulk w/ Orca: 2761m3
2 Hulks w/ Orca: 5522m3
3 Hulks w/ Orca: 8283m3
4 Hulks w/ Orca: 11044m3
5 Hulks w/ Orca: 13805m3

If you only have 1 character, you may be better off using a Mackinaw due to hauling issues. If you have 2 characters, I would use Hulk+Orca because the ore loss is minimal and will most likely be made up by not having to stop your hulk to haul. Any amount of characters above 2 will see the Hulks+Orca combination miles in front. Mining with Mackinaws+Orca will never be optimal, unless you're trying to multibox large amounts of accounts... and that is more of an ease-of-use issue... you will be mining less.

Another advantage of the Hulk is that its 3 mining lasers allow it to mine 3 rocks at once, reducing lost mining time when you pop an asteroid that only had 2 units of ore in it.
Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#5 - 2012-10-03 15:33:52 UTC
Paikis wrote:

1 Hulk w/ Orca: 2761m3
2 Hulks w/ Orca: 5522m3
3 Hulks w/ Orca: 8283m3
4 Hulks w/ Orca: 11044m3
5 Hulks w/ Orca: 13805m3


To me, this suggests that the Orca still needs a larger bay. If you use the 50k ore hold, 40k corp hangar, and get rigs & fittings for cargo capacity you gain an extra ~95k in cargo hold.

That's a total of 185k m3 the Orca can hold if it's geared 100% to holding ore.

5 Hulks fill that in 13 minutes.


Maybe this is fine, but to me it seems unreasonable. (if not geared toward capacity and only using the ore hold, it gets filled in 3-4 minutes). I think the Orca should get 30 minutes when geared toward max capacity. This leads to a ore hold size of 275k m3.

Or give it the same size as a Rorqual (250k m3) and increase the standard cargo hold to compensate. With a 50k m3 cargohold you can get up to about 160 m3 cargo hold. This with 250k m3 gives an Orca about 32 minutes supporting 5 Hulks before it's full.


Thoughts?
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-10-03 16:40:35 UTC
Hulk doesn't need a super awesome fleet to be effective. They just need someone to haul for them. IT'S REALLY NOT THAT HARD.
Ruareve
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-10-03 17:48:13 UTC
The problem is not the yield of the Hulk, it's the tank sacrifices that have to be made to get the Hulk to a bare minimum of survivability. In the end I get a better or the same yield from the other hulls because I can fit a tank capable of standing up to ganking without having to sacrifice yield.


I've been saying this since the changes were proposed, but the Hulk needs it's tank boosted about 10-15k base. Then you can go max yield and have enough EHP to not get ganked by a couple of cheap fit destroyers. When the new dessies come out the problem will be even worse.

I have numbers in this post.

Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/