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[Winter] Combat Cruisers

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Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#181 - 2012-10-02 18:11:25 UTC
Kaikka Carel wrote:
Aw droneboat still has the least amount of slots total. I just can't understand why you keep cuting this one slot down. Is there a reason beside:

- Drones are a destructible source of damage/debuff
- Drones have travel time
- Utility drones don't work(except for jamming ones)
- Drones are user unfriendly
- Drones deal only EM and Exp damage types

... to handicap the ships so much?

Please. CCP Forzie, tell me that an in-built damage amplifier takes up that slot or maybe a drone bay leaves no internal hull space.


The Vexor is perfectly fine and probably the most balanced and solid looking of the lot.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

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Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2012-10-02 18:11:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Long time expected post!!!!!

good changes... although caldari and minmatar will have to use guns+missiles

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#183 - 2012-10-02 18:13:04 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Maller:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
5% bonus to all Armor Resistances
Slot layout: 5 H (-1), 3 M, 6 L, 5 turrets
Fittings: 1000 PWG (+100), 280 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-168) / 2100(+225) / 1700(-19)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1550(+50) / 515s(-22.5s) / 3 (+0.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 205(+41) / 0.56(-0.045) / 11550000 / 6.1s (-0.4)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47.5km / 280(+10) / 6
Sensor strength: 16 Radar (+2)
Signature radius: 130
Cargo capacity: 480 (+200)


CCP Fozzie wrote:

Omen:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire
Slot layout: 5 H, 3 M, 6 L (+1), 5 turrets
Fittings: 925 PWG (+195), 315 CPU (+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+27) / 1700(+137) / 1600(+37)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1475(+225) / 526s(+79.75s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 225(+44) / 0.51(-0.05) / 11650000 / 5.6s (-0.5)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 40(+25) / 40(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km(+10) / 300(+7) / 6(-1)
Sensor strength: 15 Radar (+2)
Signature radius: 125
Cargo capacity: 400(-50)


So they're both slow armor brawlers. I guess the Omen vs Maller is a question of better fittings + resist bonus vs drones? I honestly don't see the point of the Omen.

Quote:

Vexor:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield
Slot layout: 4 H (-1), 4 M (+1), 5 L (+1), 4 turrets
Fittings: 800 PWG (+125), 300 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100(-73) / 2000(+515) / 2000(+515)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+200) / 482.5s(+36.25s) / 3 (+0.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 215(+46) / 0.6(+0.03) / 10310000 / 5.8s (+0.3)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 100
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km / 280(+4) / 6(+1)
Sensor strength: 16 Magnetometric (+2)
Signature radius: 145 (-5)
Cargo capacity: 480


I like it a lot.

Quote:

Rupture:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret firing speed
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage
Slot layout: 5 H (-1), 4 M (+1), 5 L, 4 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 860 PWG, 350 CPU (+25)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1500(-63) / 1800(+159) / 1600(+37)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1275(+25) / 425s(-21.25s) / 3(+0.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 240(+48) / 0.54 / 11650000 / 5.9s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 30 / 30
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km(+5) / 290(+8) / 6(+1)
Sensor strength: 15 Ladar (+3)
Signature radius: 125 (-5)
Cargo capacity: 450 (+150)


Cool. It gives a bit more flexibility but it's roughly the same ship. I like the implication this has towards the Muninn. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#184 - 2012-10-02 18:15:12 UTC
how about -1 utility highslot from moa to a medium slot.that would balance the things a little between it and rupture.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#185 - 2012-10-02 18:17:22 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP has flatly stated that they dislike the buffer shield tank trend happening in EVE and the lot of you ignore that and continue to cry out for the ability to do it on all shield tanked ships.
Clearly they dislike it. That's why they just made the Vexor, Ruppie, and Thorax all completely viable shield-buffer gank ships.... Sorry, but reality isn't meshing terribly well with your narrative. Shield buffer is alive and well, and CCP is promoting the hell out of it with these new slot layouts.

And if the Eagle gets the Moa bonus (ie. range bonus becomes damage bonus) that would give the Eagle a double damage bonus along with it's better resist profile, grid, and CPU. If you don't see a reason to use that over a Moa, there's not much point to continuing this discussion.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#186 - 2012-10-02 18:17:58 UTC
Make the rupture slower.. Make it a big breacher or something, except slow. With less dps.

And give the poor Vexor a rep bonus, and then buff medium reps by a fuckton.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#187 - 2012-10-02 18:20:40 UTC
I like how instead of making medium rails good, they're simply making all Caldari gunboats blasterboats.

Woo homogeneity
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#188 - 2012-10-02 18:22:34 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Most of these threads are all over the place but there seems to be general consensus on most points here:

Moa - needs another mid. More PG.
Rupture - too much
Maller - underwhelming.



The new Merlin doesn't have the utility high so probably Moa shouldn't either. Another mid would allow for ridiculous shield tank which would be awesome.

Rupture(and Minmatar in general). CCP thinks 40 m/s is not so much. Well yeah... probably... until you multiply it by 6 and then 1.094 on top of the best agility in the class.

Kinda agree on the Maller. It still lacks the soul or purpose.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#189 - 2012-10-02 18:25:14 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
I like how instead of making medium rails good, they're simply making all Caldari gunboats blasterboats.

Woo homogeneity


By the end of this I'm pretty sure 90% of all combat ships will be (shield tanking) brawlers.
Wivabel
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2012-10-02 18:25:32 UTC
Please fix Vexor drone bay. 75/150 atleast is needed. Even arbitrator gets 50/150. The vexors drone utility is needed. You already took a slot. Give me drone utility. 1 flight heavies 1 flight mediums 1 flight light. Give people a reason to fly Drone boats in PVP.

I am not sure if I am going to log in anymore.......
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#191 - 2012-10-02 18:26:29 UTC
Kaikka Carel wrote:


The new Merlin doesn't have the utility high so probably Moa shouldn't either. Another mid would allow for ridiculous shield tank which would be awesome.

Rupture(and Minmatar in general). CCP thinks 40 m/s is not so much. Well yeah... probably... until you multiply it by 6 and then 1.094 on top of the best agility in the class.

Kinda agree on the Maller. It still lacks the soul or purpose.



You may have noticed that all the combat frigates with utility highslots are absolute trash.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#192 - 2012-10-02 18:27:15 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
I like how instead of making medium rails good, they're simply making all Caldari gunboats blasterboats.

Woo homogeneity


Damage bonused rails are more useful than range bonused ones. Once you're hitting at a certain range it stops actually being helpful and just ridiculous.

Besides, Gallente have to deal with the suck that is Railguns too, so it's hardly homogeneity.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#193 - 2012-10-02 18:28:53 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Besides, Gallente have to deal with the suck that is Railguns too, so it's hardly homogeneity.
Wut? Isn't that exactly what homogeneity is?
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#194 - 2012-10-02 18:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
PinkKnife wrote:
Droneboats in general need a LOT more CPU to work with. A t2 drone link augmenter uses 55 CPU alone. A t1, 50cpu. The drone rigs decrease cpu by 10%, on ships that already have sever cpu limitations, their drone based damage mods are ridiculously hard to fit. The ishtar suffers from this problem immensely.


This. Also, the Vexor Navy Issue runs out of CPU in a big hurry when you try to fit it like a drone boat.

I understand that poor CPU is supposed to be a Gallente thing, but then why do they also use drones? Never mind, it's probably for the same reason that they armor tank and use blasters, right?

Regarding the proposed ships, I'm not terribly good at eyeballing stats yet, but:

1) Vexor looks good. I dislike the paltry ratio of drone bay to drone bandwidth, but if I stop looking at it as a "drone boat" and look at it as a sturdy DPS boat with a split weapon system it's very nice. The buff to prop speed and agility is especially yummy;

2) Not sure why the Rupture gets more everything, and more speed than the attack cruisers?

3) Also, not sure why the Maller starts out with crap speed and align time when its intended role as an armor tanker will gimp those traits even further, or why it's so cap-hungry and no longer able to cap-chain or NOS? I don't fly Mallers, but I thought that was the Amarr thing?

I can't really comment on the Moa.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#195 - 2012-10-02 18:37:15 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Aglais wrote:
Besides, Gallente have to deal with the suck that is Railguns too, so it's hardly homogeneity.
Wut? Isn't that exactly what homogeneity is?


Wow am I ever out of it today.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that if the Moa is given choice between long range weapons (railguns) and short range (blasters) which is something that Gallente have always seemed to have, yes I guess it's a KIND of homogeneity but it's not exactly the sort where 'everything is exactly the same' in using all similarly functioning short range guns. Homogeneity of being able to choose what you want to outfit your ship to do across all factions is acceptable to me, because that doesn't necessarily mean that all of these ships will do the exact same things for short and long range weaponry.
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#196 - 2012-10-02 18:42:12 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kaikka Carel wrote:


The new Merlin doesn't have the utility high so probably Moa shouldn't either. Another mid would allow for ridiculous shield tank which would be awesome.

Rupture(and Minmatar in general). CCP thinks 40 m/s is not so much. Well yeah... probably... until you multiply it by 6 and then 1.094 on top of the best agility in the class.

Kinda agree on the Maller. It still lacks the soul or purpose.



You may have noticed that all the combat frigates with utility highslots are absolute trash.


Rifter? The old AC Punisher was nice too.
Ark Anhammar
GO' R0V
Pandemic Horde
#197 - 2012-10-02 18:43:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello everyone! We've got the final set of T1 Cruisers here for you all. The Combat Cruisers are designed as frontline warships with both solid damage and good staying power.

These ships got somewhat less dramatic changes than the others. The average EHP of the set is only 2% higher than the average EHP of the old Tier 3 cruisers. Their main advantages over the other t1 cruisers are in tanking and a more robust capacitor pool.

Vexor:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield
Slot layout: 4 H (-1), 4 M (+1), 5 L (+1), 4 turrets
Fittings: 800 PWG (+125), 300 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100(-73) / 2000(+515) / 2000(+515)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+200) / 482.5s(+36.25s) / 3 (+0.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 215(+46) / 0.6(+0.03) / 10310000 / 5.8s (+0.3)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 100
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km / 280(+4) / 6(+1)
Sensor strength: 16 Magnetometric (+2)
Signature radius: 145 (-5)
Cargo capacity: 480

I was secretly hoping these would get more survivability: I wish the hybrid bonus was shifted to a +5% armor hit points/level or something similar. Besides, I'd love to see Gallente bonuses shift toward EITHER Drones OR Hybrids, a la Caldari and their missile or hybrid ships. Minmatar can be special snowflakes and keep split weapon systems! :)

Let the attack cruisers be set up for pew pew, and let the combat cruisers be able to stay in battle longer.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#198 - 2012-10-02 18:47:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
The new Omen and Maller demonstrate why the Maller should really have been redesigned as HAM ship.

I believe the Maller not having drones is an attempt to differentiate it from the Omen. The drone bay and the second ship bonus (-10% cap usage vs +5% armor resists) are the only major differences between the two ships. The slot layout is identical and minor differences in armor and speed don't really affect the "feel" of the ship.

Now the Maller is running into problems because not having a drone bay hurts especially with lasers. But if you give it a drone bay, it's going to be very, very similar to the Omen. At the same time, the Maller pretty much needs a cap injector too because it doesn't have a laser cap usage bonus. It would need an extra slot (12 total) over its peers which is "breaking the rules" so to speak.

If the Maller becomes a HAM ship you don't need to give it a drone bay nor an extra slot and it's going to be a very different ship from the Omen.

There is a similar problem at the frigate level too, with too many laser ships being too similar to each other.
Ark Anhammar
GO' R0V
Pandemic Horde
#199 - 2012-10-02 18:48:41 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So I take it Gallente drone boats will never get away from split weapon systems?
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Why do we keep giving ships split weapon systems between drones and turrets? It's a very valid question, and one that we have been looking at for several ships. In the end the pure drone options we looked at for the Tristan never matched what we were looking for with this design. Drones on frigates is a bit tougher to balance than drones on larger ships, but we have plans to add some stronger drone focuses to ships going forward. I know that's not the answer some of you were hoping for with this ship, but this isn't the last drone ship we're unveiling for winter.

Looks around for new new drone ships to be unveiled....ah, nothing....boo.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#200 - 2012-10-02 18:50:03 UTC
Also, to address the whole Maller thing here.

Why not turn it into a missile ship? I mean, we have the Sacrilege, which is a T2 Maller hull. It's a missile ship. What I think, is that the Maller should not be specialized to using just Heavy Assault Launchers. Definitely give it a rate of fire bonus to heavy and heavy assault missiles, and keep the 5% bonus to armor resistances per level. This will make it somewhat different from the Omen, which is something I hear people complaining about in multiple threads.

And yes, I do think the Maller could use a drone bay. 15m^3 at the most.

I don't really know if that'd help but it's capacitor would then be able to be set aside for mobility and defense.