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Will CCP opens SPs after patches ?
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John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#61 - 2012-10-02 13:41:48 UTC
Tippia wrote:
No, what you're illustrating is the rigid thinking of "don't use it if you don't like it", believing that not liking it is the problem. In fact, it's the exact opposite: it's something that you would have to be apocalyptically stupid not to use because there is no way to dislike the effects. You lack the imagination to see what such a system would mean and how it would be (ab)used.


You're wrong. You clearly haven't had enough exposure to other MMOs were this precise system is in place. I have and therefore support it. It's a great idea.

Quote:
]To help you, I'll use the standard copypasta:

It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.

Oh, and there are pretty much no positive effects to counter all those issues. It doesn't solve a single problem.


All of those points are nonsense. Sorry, but it's true.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#62 - 2012-10-02 13:43:37 UTC  |  Edited by: John Ratcliffe
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nope. Making raw SP rather than skills matter harms new players, since that's something they don't have.


No it doesn't. New players don't have skills or SP, they are two sides of the same coin.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#63 - 2012-10-02 13:45:07 UTC
Anyway, I'm conscious I am doing what I said I wouldn't do, which is to continue to argue my point. Some of you will agree and that's cool, some of you won't and that's cool too. I don't see the point in going around in circles though.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#64 - 2012-10-02 13:50:03 UTC
John Ratcliff wrote:

Quote:
]To help you, I'll use the standard copypasta:

It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.

Oh, and there are pretty much no positive effects to counter all those issues. It doesn't solve a single problem.


All of those points are nonsense. Sorry, but it's true.



That depends on what point she was trying to make with those points. I guess you had to be following your feud to know what is was.

Unrelated to you two. I blocked my first person on Evegate today. And I'm already happier.

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2012-10-02 13:50:33 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Rats wrote:


If they did this then anyone who has ever been touched by a game change could ask to free up there SP. Its not practical and would undermine the whole skills tree as everyone would remap there skills to the latest flavour of the month, which would then be seen as over powered (and boring to be honest), get nerfed then everyone would switch to the new flavor, Eve skills are about long term direction not short term fix.

My main is primarily missiles and to be honest the change isn't that bad..


Tal


How isn't it practical? It's an almost irrelevant coding fix. What's wrong with being able to avoid a nerf? I really don't see the issue with allowing players to respec to more useful skill lines - what's wrong with being flavour of the Month?



You don't code do you ? Making a statement like that when you don't know the program is .... dumb tbh. Following your reasoning then we should not have skills, everyone should just have access to everything.


Tal

I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk
Pipa Porto
#66 - 2012-10-02 13:53:12 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nope. Making raw SP rather than skills matter harms new players, since that's something they don't have.


No it doesn't. New players don't have skills or SP, they are two sides of the same coin.


I'll repeat the example of how you're pathetically wrong, since you didn't get past the first line:

Pipa Porto wrote:
If I have 50m SP and it's not invested in Frigates, I'll fly a Frigate worse than a newer player with 10m SP invested in Frigates.

If I can dynamically adjust my training, I will always have more SP towards my ship than that 10m SP newer player, so long as more than 10m SP can be applied to that ship (that's most ships, including frigates).



Newer players can have more skill ranks and SP applicable to the ship they are flying than older players if they specialize. You're proposing a system where that is no longer true. Where older players will always have more skill ranks and SP applicable to the ship they are flying than newer players because they can simply respec to become specialized.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#67 - 2012-10-02 13:54:24 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Anyway, I'm conscious I am doing what I said I wouldn't do, which is to continue to argue my point. Some of you will agree and that's cool, some of you won't and that's cool too. I don't see the point in going around in circles though.


You're saying that your idea is so bad you're not willing to defend it?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#68 - 2012-10-02 13:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
John Ratcliffe wrote:
You're wrong. You clearly haven't had enough exposure to other MMOs were this precise system is in place.
You clearly haven't had enough exposure to EVE to realise that this precise system isn't needed and why it would have the exact opposite effects to what you're envisioning. Those other games do not have EVE's skill system and as such, the only conclusion you can draw from other games is that what works for them is pretty much irrelevant to EVE.

Removing and breaking core game mechanics in order to solve... well... nothing, because there is nothing to solve, is not "a great idea". "Deleterious" or "destructive" are better words for it.

Quote:
All of those points are nonsense. Sorry, but it's true.
They are indeed all true. If you want to show that there's something wrong with them, please do so. No-one has ever succeeded so far, so good luck...

Those are the effect SP remaps would have on the EVE skill system. All of them are pretty obvious if you sit down to actually think about it rather than post some knee-jerk "nu-uh" post without engaging any neurons first.

Quote:
New players don't have skills or SP, they are two sides of the same coin.
No, they really aren't. While they may look superficially similar, SP are not XP. Skill levels are not levels. Skill trees are not classes. And SP and skills might be related, but in terms of what they do in the game, they are completely separate things (most notably, SP only does one thing, and it's a very bad thing at that). New players can have excellent skills without having much in the way of SP due to the rather loose connection between the two.
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#69 - 2012-10-02 13:59:43 UTC
Lord Ryan wrote:
That depends on what point she was trying to make with those points. I guess you had to be following your feud to know what is was.


We're aren't having a feud, we are having a debate Blink

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Caterin Stetille
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-10-02 14:01:15 UTC
What.
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#71 - 2012-10-02 14:01:34 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
You're saying that your idea is so bad you're not willing to defend it?


Not at all. I think I've explained myself pretty clearly and I've defended why I feel that way. No-one has presented anything new that requires me to comment.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#72 - 2012-10-02 14:03:29 UTC

Yes nerfing does these things

Quote:
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.



After 4 years I shouldn't have a massive boost over new characters?

Quote:
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2012-10-02 14:04:01 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
You're saying that your idea is so bad you're not willing to defend it?


Not at all. I think I've explained myself pretty clearly and I've defended why I feel that way. No-one has presented anything new that requires me to comment.



But you haven't defended the way you feel, your argument has been shot to shreds ....


Tal

I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#74 - 2012-10-02 14:05:35 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Lord Ryan wrote:
That depends on what point she was trying to make with those points. I guess you had to be following your feud to know what is was.


We're aren't having a feud, we are having a debate Blink

Sounds likely a friendly feud to me. And interesting to boot.

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#75 - 2012-10-02 14:05:58 UTC
Lord Ryan wrote:
Yes nerfing does these things
No. It rather reinforces them.

Quote:
After 4 years I shouldn't have a massive boost over new characters?
No. After 4 years, you should know how to play the game better than a new player, but that's about it.
Pipa Porto
#76 - 2012-10-02 14:08:00 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
You're saying that your idea is so bad you're not willing to defend it?


Not at all. I think I've explained myself pretty clearly and I've defended why I feel that way. No-one has presented anything new that requires me to comment.


You mean besides pointing out that just about every assertion you've made is wrong?

That your idea would make fact the fiction that new players can never catch up to older players.
That your idea would remove the consequence of choosing what to train when.
That your idea would remove the point of Attributes.

And so on.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#77 - 2012-10-02 14:09:30 UTC  |  Edited by: John Ratcliffe
Tippia wrote:
You clearly haven't had enough exposure to EVE to realise that this precise system isn't needed and why it would have the exact opposite effects to what you're envisioning. Those other games do not have EVE's skill system and as such, the only conclusion you can draw from other games is that what works for them is pretty much irrelevant to EVE.


I've played just over a year now. I appreciate that's nothing compared to some players, but it's long enough to see that a skill respec is needed and could work. Eve is not a unique game idea - it's mechanics are exactly the same as many other MMOs. the only difference is how skills are gained; in DAoC it's killing mobs, in Eve it's waiting for the passage of real time.

Quote:
They are indeed all true. If you want to show that there's something wrong with them, please do so. No-one has ever succeeded so far, so good luck...

Those are the effect SP remaps would have on the EVE skill system. All of them are pretty obvious if you sit down to actually think about it rather than post some knee-jerk "nu-uh" post without engaging any neurons first.


I believe the burden of proof should be on you to demonstrate why you're right - you're making the claim, so you prove it. I don't accept that they are either obvious or correct and you've provided no evidence to support that. So it's really just your opinion isn't it?

Quote:
No, they really aren't. While they may look superficially similar, SP are not XP. Skill levels are not levels. Skill trees are not classes. And SP and skills might be related, but in terms of what they do in the game, they are completely separate things (most notably, SP only does one thing, and it's a very bad thing at that). New players can have excellent skills without having much in the way of SP due to the rather loose connection between the two.


Of course they are. SPs are the mechanism by which a player advances in the game. They are exactly the same as XP.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#78 - 2012-10-02 14:12:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lord Ryan wrote:
Yes nerfing does these things
No. It rather reinforces them.

Quote:
After 4 years I shouldn't have a massive boost over new characters?
No. After 4 years, you should know how to play the game better than a new player, but that's about it.



My goal was to use heavy missiles one day. Now I can and they're not worth using. Goal defeated


CCP 1, Ryan 0

At least I still have my Cane I spent years maxing out, you know cause it was FOTM. Oh wait.

CCP 2, Ryan 0

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#79 - 2012-10-02 14:16:52 UTC  |  Edited by: John Ratcliffe
Pipa Porto wrote:
You mean besides pointing out that just about every assertion you've made is wrong?


In your opinion. This is precisely what I wanted to avoid - we can play the 'I'm right', 'No, I'm right' game all day. What does it achieve?

Quote:
That your idea would make fact the fiction that new players can never catch up to older players.


New players can never catch up to older players now. Not if the arbiter of that is the sum total of SPs. New players wouldn't be able to catch up to older players with a skill respec; the player with the most SPs will always be best prepared for victory if they choose to spend them wisely. And that's not even getting into the argument about player skill which a completely different can of worms.

Quote:
That your idea would remove the consequence of choosing what to train when.


Only to a point, you'd still need to build up sufficient SPs to make a respec worthwhile. Even so, I find myself thinking 'So what?'

Quote:
That your idea would remove the point of Attributes.


No it wouldn't. Until that character has gained every skill in the game then Attributes are still critical.

Now, are you going to present any valid arguments?

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Celestarias
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2012-10-02 14:16:55 UTC
Quote:

:words: and this:
of course they are. SPs are the mechanism by which a player advances in the game. They are exactly the same as XP.


You're wrong. Your argument is bad. You're terrible at making a point.

You're also a terrible troll. If you think SP is advancement in this game, Please go back to WoW where you can brag about your Gearscore and link the Hardmode achievement your guildies got your toonie so you can brag in Stormwind/Org.