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ECM is Killing Solo PvP
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Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#121 - 2012-10-01 19:06:35 UTC
Yeah, **** eccm modules, they don't do anything....
Shi Xia
Killing With Kindness
#122 - 2012-10-01 20:00:02 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Shi Xia wrote:


Stuff I wrote,



He gimped his fit and got lucky that the jam hit. He was either using Multispecs and got really lucky or Minnie jammers and got lucky that you brought a minnie ship.

Had the jam not hit, you would have killed him and been laughing about his fit.


You speak truth. The pilot could have had multi spec with signal distortion amps, but most likely an ECM Phase Inverter (Ladar). Indeed there is the possibility the jam could have failed, but more often than not I find myself on the **** end of the stick in these situations. It's becoming more common to see pilots run off and come back in the same hull with ECM refit, as in the example I gave. Sure, it's a part of the game and I give the pilot credit for using it to his advantage. I still think it's OP.

ECM is not in line with the other EWAR mods. Someone pointed out that a TD doesn't render you turrets completely useless for 20 seconds, an SD doesn't reduce your target range to 0 for 20 seconds, and so on. The ECM modules are the only thing in Eve where someone with virtually no skill or knowledge (I'm not talking about acquired SP) can just slap them on and render their target completely vulnerable. It completely eradicates the use of trained skills, strategy, and planning. Any ****** can slap on some ECM with modules to support it and overtake someone. The X-Factor here is too high and well, attracts WoW (like) players who don't have to think, learn, and adapt.

What if, just what if ECM modules were set up to fit specifically on ECM ships? Like the CovOpc Cloak I mentioned. Any ship can fit a cloak, just as any ship can use TD/SD/and the like. But not every ship can fit a CovOps cloak. So in my minds eye I envision ships like the Kitsune and the Falcon having bonuses to fit ECM whereas other ships would be too taxed by CPU or PG to fit them.

This would allow gangs and fleets to keep there ECM with no nerf, and allow the rest of us who enjoy the challenge of small gang warfare and 1v1 PvP to at least be able to go down fighting.
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#123 - 2012-10-01 23:41:40 UTC
everyone start flying Falcons/Blackbirds

The End.
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#124 - 2012-10-01 23:51:44 UTC
I'll just quote my post from another thread with an edit or two:

Quote:
So, currently ECM is chanced based combined with ECM jammer strength. The greater the ECM strength, the greater chance to jam the target. You either jam the target or don't, absolutely nothing else is affected.

Here is my suggestion:

First, combine the sensor strength of all ships with their corresponding scan resolution so as to be proportional to each other.

This way when a ship loses sensor strength it loses the corresponding proportional scan resolution.

Take the chance based system off of ECM and apply the normal falloff mechanics, etc.

When you have enough ECM to jam a ship's sensor strength completely... it's jammed completely... simple enough?

If you jam a ship partially (in effect lower it's sensor strength) the ship's scan resolution drops in it's proper proportions, whatever CCP decides it should be.

So, even if you don't jam a ship completely you can still reduce it's scan resolution making it lock things slower.

This effect should be balanced so that it doesn't replace sensor damps, this is why I kept using the word proportional.

There could also be an effect on the number of targets the jammed ship can target. Jam the ship 50% of the way, the targeted ship can now only target half of what it originally could.

Not sue if it should be scan resolution or number of targets the ship can lock, maybe both. I don't know...
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#125 - 2012-10-01 23:58:30 UTC
As an ECM pilot I hated two things:
1. Sensor Dampeners.
2. Fast tackle frigates.
Worse was both: tackle frigates with a damp.

ECM and range is the tank, so take away range and miss a jam cycle, and one is soon waking-up in a new clone.
Smiknight
Smiknight Corporation
#126 - 2012-10-02 00:41:02 UTC
No...not being prepared has much more to do with it than ECM does. If you anticipate ECM, fit accordingly. Besides, solo PvP died because of blobs, not ECM, where have you been?
A reward devoid of risk is no reward at all, but is instead a handout.
Pipa Porto
#127 - 2012-10-02 01:31:47 UTC
Shi Xia wrote:
You speak truth. The pilot could have had multi spec with signal distortion amps, but most likely an ECM Phase Inverter (Ladar). Indeed there is the possibility the jam could have failed, but more often than not I find myself on the **** end of the stick in these situations. It's becoming more common to see pilots run off and come back in the same hull with ECM refit, as in the example I gave. Sure, it's a part of the game and I give the pilot credit for using it to his advantage. I still think it's OP.

ECM is not in line with the other EWAR mods. Someone pointed out that a TD doesn't render you turrets completely useless for 20 seconds, an SD doesn't reduce your target range to 0 for 20 seconds, and so on. The ECM modules are the only thing in Eve where someone with virtually no skill or knowledge (I'm not talking about acquired SP) can just slap them on and render their target completely vulnerable. It completely eradicates the use of trained skills, strategy, and planning. Any ****** can slap on some ECM with modules to support it and overtake someone. The X-Factor here is too high and well, attracts WoW (like) players who don't have to think, learn, and adapt.

What if, just what if ECM modules were set up to fit specifically on ECM ships? Like the CovOpc Cloak I mentioned. Any ship can fit a cloak, just as any ship can use TD/SD/and the like. But not every ship can fit a CovOps cloak. So in my minds eye I envision ships like the Kitsune and the Falcon having bonuses to fit ECM whereas other ships would be too taxed by CPU or PG to fit them.

This would allow gangs and fleets to keep there ECM with no nerf, and allow the rest of us who enjoy the challenge of small gang warfare and 1v1 PvP to at least be able to go down fighting.


If it's that OP, why aren't you using it? Why haven't you thought about how to deal with ECM, learned to fit ECCM (works fantastic against unbonused ECCM), and adapted to the prevalence of unbonused ECM?

If someone heads out to refit, maybe you shouldn't sit like a stump waiting to get ganked?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Shi Xia
Killing With Kindness
#128 - 2012-10-02 06:45:15 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Shi Xia wrote:


What if, just what if ECM modules were set up to fit specifically on ECM ships? Like the CovOpc Cloak I mentioned. Any ship can fit a cloak, just as any ship can use TD/SD/and the like. But not every ship can fit a CovOps cloak. So in my minds eye I envision ships like the Kitsune and the Falcon having bonuses to fit ECM whereas other ships would be too taxed by CPU or PG to fit them.

This would allow gangs and fleets to keep there ECM with no nerf, and allow the rest of us who enjoy the challenge of small gang warfare and 1v1 PvP to at least be able to go down fighting.


nothing constructive. [/i]


ECCM works fantastic against unbonused ECCM? I don't quite get that.

As to your questions; YES. I have thought about all of that, and adapted where I could, and was not sitting like a stump (that analogy made me chuckle, nice one.) I could explain more but you seem more interested in being right than actually paying attention to what I wrote. Maybe take another look and come back with something constructive, or at the very least corroborate your point of view.

Pipa Porto
#129 - 2012-10-02 08:13:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Shi Xia wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Shi Xia wrote:


What if, just what if ECM modules were set up to fit specifically on ECM ships? Like the CovOpc Cloak I mentioned. Any ship can fit a cloak, just as any ship can use TD/SD/and the like. But not every ship can fit a CovOps cloak. So in my minds eye I envision ships like the Kitsune and the Falcon having bonuses to fit ECM whereas other ships would be too taxed by CPU or PG to fit them.

This would allow gangs and fleets to keep there ECM with no nerf, and allow the rest of us who enjoy the challenge of small gang warfare and 1v1 PvP to at least be able to go down fighting.


nothing constructive. [/i]


ECCM works fantastic against unbonused ECCM? I don't quite get that.

As to your questions; YES. I have thought about all of that, and adapted where I could, and was not sitting like a stump (that analogy made me chuckle, nice one.) I could explain more but you seem more interested in being right than actually paying attention to what I wrote. Maybe take another look and come back with something constructive, or at the very least corroborate your point of view.



Typos happen. Somehow, I don't think figuring that out would have taxed most people as it seems to have taxed you. ECCM works great against unbonused ECM (because of the whole low jam strength thing).

You were complaining that people leave then refit to beat you then come back an beat you. And you let them. Here's a hint. If they leave to refit, do the same and fit ECCM.

Why should ECM be the only EWAR type that's limited to certain ship hulls? What makes it different than other EWAR (other than the fact that it is significantly less useful than many other EWAR when unbonused and that it doesn't work all the time)?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#130 - 2012-10-02 11:45:03 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Shi Xia wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Shi Xia wrote:


What if, just what if ECM modules were set up to fit specifically on ECM ships? Like the CovOpc Cloak I mentioned. Any ship can fit a cloak, just as any ship can use TD/SD/and the like. But not every ship can fit a CovOps cloak. So in my minds eye I envision ships like the Kitsune and the Falcon having bonuses to fit ECM whereas other ships would be too taxed by CPU or PG to fit them.

This would allow gangs and fleets to keep there ECM with no nerf, and allow the rest of us who enjoy the challenge of small gang warfare and 1v1 PvP to at least be able to go down fighting.


nothing constructive. [/i]


ECCM works fantastic against unbonused ECCM? I don't quite get that.

As to your questions; YES. I have thought about all of that, and adapted where I could, and was not sitting like a stump (that analogy made me chuckle, nice one.) I could explain more but you seem more interested in being right than actually paying attention to what I wrote. Maybe take another look and come back with something constructive, or at the very least corroborate your point of view.



Why should ECM be the only EWAR type that's limited to certain ship hulls? What makes it different than other EWAR (other than the fact that it is significantly less useful than many other EWAR when unbonused and that it doesn't work all the time)?


if you actually read what I or shia wrote you'd know.

ECM renders a ship USELESS, other forms of Ewar have far more obvious and accessible counters.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Pipa Porto
#131 - 2012-10-02 11:47:14 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
if you actually read what I or shia wrote you'd know.

ECM renders a ship USELESS, other forms of Ewar have far more obvious and accessible counters.


Only if it succeeds. How is a module named after the EWAR it specifically counters not obvious?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#132 - 2012-10-02 11:52:42 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Shi Xia wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Shi Xia wrote:


What if, just what if ECM modules were set up to fit specifically on ECM ships? Like the CovOpc Cloak I mentioned. Any ship can fit a cloak, just as any ship can use TD/SD/and the like. But not every ship can fit a CovOps cloak. So in my minds eye I envision ships like the Kitsune and the Falcon having bonuses to fit ECM whereas other ships would be too taxed by CPU or PG to fit them.

This would allow gangs and fleets to keep there ECM with no nerf, and allow the rest of us who enjoy the challenge of small gang warfare and 1v1 PvP to at least be able to go down fighting.


nothing constructive. [/i]


ECCM works fantastic against unbonused ECCM? I don't quite get that.

As to your questions; YES. I have thought about all of that, and adapted where I could, and was not sitting like a stump (that analogy made me chuckle, nice one.) I could explain more but you seem more interested in being right than actually paying attention to what I wrote. Maybe take another look and come back with something constructive, or at the very least corroborate your point of view.



Why should ECM be the only EWAR type that's limited to certain ship hulls? What makes it different than other EWAR (other than the fact that it is significantly less useful than many other EWAR when unbonused and that it doesn't work all the time)?


if you actually read what I or shia wrote you'd know.

ECM renders a ship USELESS, other forms of Ewar have far more obvious and accessible counters.


Actually ECM on it's own does not render a ship useless. It can still fly away.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2012-10-02 11:54:07 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
I'll just quote my post from another thread with an edit or two:

Quote:
So, currently ECM is chanced based combined with ECM jammer strength. The greater the ECM strength, the greater chance to jam the target. You either jam the target or don't, absolutely nothing else is affected.

Here is my suggestion:

First, combine the sensor strength of all ships with their corresponding scan resolution so as to be proportional to each other.

This way when a ship loses sensor strength it loses the corresponding proportional scan resolution.

Take the chance based system off of ECM and apply the normal falloff mechanics, etc.

When you have enough ECM to jam a ship's sensor strength completely... it's jammed completely... simple enough?

If you jam a ship partially (in effect lower it's sensor strength) the ship's scan resolution drops in it's proper proportions, whatever CCP decides it should be.

So, even if you don't jam a ship completely you can still reduce it's scan resolution making it lock things slower.

This effect should be balanced so that it doesn't replace sensor damps, this is why I kept using the word proportional.

There could also be an effect on the number of targets the jammed ship can target. Jam the ship 50% of the way, the targeted ship can now only target half of what it originally could.

Not sue if it should be scan resolution or number of targets the ship can lock, maybe both. I don't know...


So basically you're saying remove ECM and change sensor dampeners or vice versa. In either case one module would have to go which would pretty much leave either Gallente or Caldari without a signature e-warfare module.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#134 - 2012-10-02 11:59:11 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:


Actually ECM on it's own does not render a ship useless. It can still fly away.


http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7dhwkaZDt1r5h1q3o2_500.jpg

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#135 - 2012-10-02 12:00:12 UTC  |  Edited by: tiberiusric
Doyey3731 wrote:
Well not that alone, but it's certainly playing it's part.

I like going out for a roam alone and losing a ship. I'm not into the whole large gang stuff, been there done that. So I like going out, knowing I'm going to die but try and get a kill or two before I do.

The last few times I have, I've been blobbed which is great and to be expected, but I can't get a shot off most of the time which is what hacks me off. A crappy T1 hull cruiser can sit many KM from me and stop me from firing a single shot. It's so dull and predictable now. There is no effective counter against it. I can put some ECCM on there, but that's about as useful as a condom machine in the Vatican, and wastes midslots so shield tanking is out of the question. I tried ECM drones last time out and put them straight on the ECM boat, but nada. Granted it was a T2 boat this time, but that shouldn't mean it's invulnerable.

So I could try a drone boat, but that leaves me with just a handful of subcaps I can fly and hope my drones pick the right target.

Maybe it's just me. I expect the ECM pilots think it's great that they can make a 300m Maelstrom die with a murmur in their crappy T1 hull.

I don't mind dying in a glorious fire with all guns blazing, but not being able to fire my guns makes me a sad Minmatar.


So you said you got 'blobbed' - So tbh not being ECM'd would of made no difference, really would it? You would of died long before killing anything. Thats the problem with eve, not being able to see whats just on the other side of the gate. Yes you can have an alt, but you can only see what place at a time. All it takes is someone warp scramming you and his mates to jump in and blap your dead.

solo pvp is dead, however there are some great ppl who do it well. However they usually have 3 chars triple boxing. One booster, one dps and one scout/prober and it takes alot of setting up.

However I agree in principle ECM Boats are WAYYYYY overpowered.... perma jamming is easy and drones boats dont help they are sat a long way off, so they can cloak move and come back and blap again. Also falcons can fit 3 smarties to kill off those pesky drones...didnt you know... I dont think they should be able to completely disable all guns, maybe a fraction of them.

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#136 - 2012-10-02 12:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Roderick Grey
tiberiusric wrote:


So you said you got 'blobbed' - So tbh not being ECM'd would of made no difference, really would it? You would of died long before killing anything. Thats the problem with eve, not being able to see whats just on the other side of the gate. Yes you can have an alt, but you can only see what place at a time. All it takes is someone warp scramming you and his mates to jump in and blap your dead.

solo pvp is dead, however there are some great ppl who do it well. However they usually have 3 chars triple boxing. One booster, one dps and one scout/prober and it takes alot of setting up.

However I agree in principle ECM Boats are WAYYYYY overpowered.... perma jamming is easy and drones boats dont help they are sat a long way off, so they can cloak move and come back and blap again. Also falcons can fit 3 smarties to kill off those pesky drones...didnt you know...


however...

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#137 - 2012-10-02 12:34:43 UTC
Tammarr wrote:
solo PvP is paper, rock, scissors, blob.


FTFY.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Cede Forster
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#138 - 2012-10-02 13:31:30 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:

ECM renders a ship USELESS, other forms of Ewar have far more obvious and accessible counters.



So the game is not easy enough for you? - That is like news or something right?

Do tell, what is the obvious and accessible counter to TP.
Pipa Porto
#139 - 2012-10-02 13:33:17 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
However I agree in principle ECM Boats are WAYYYYY overpowered.... perma jamming is easy and drones boats dont help they are sat a long way off, so they can cloak move and come back and blap again. Also falcons can fit 3 smarties to kill off those pesky drones...didnt you know... I dont think they should be able to completely disable all guns, maybe a fraction of them.


An Falcon (the best ECM boat for permajamming things) can keep 2 (maaaaybe 3) ships reliably jammed, at the cost of all significant tank (oh, and try fitting 3 smartbombs after the plate you need to keep alive long enough to kill the drones), and only if the opposing fleet is a racial rainbow (or you picked an unbalanced pattern and hoped you guessed right), and only if nobody fits ECCM.

Again, if you're solo, your solution to Falcons is to not fight people who are bringing Falcons, just like when solo you probably shouldn't fight people who brought any other recon, or any other friends.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Cede Forster
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#140 - 2012-10-02 13:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cede Forster
Pipa Porto wrote:
tiberiusric wrote:
However I agree in principle ECM Boats are WAYYYYY overpowered.... perma jamming is easy and drones boats dont help they are sat a long way off, so they can cloak move and come back and blap again. Also falcons can fit 3 smarties to kill off those pesky drones...didnt you know... I dont think they should be able to completely disable all guns, maybe a fraction of them.


AN FALCON (THE BEST ECM BOAT FOR PERMAJAMMING THINGS) CAN KEEP 2 (MAAAAYBE 3) SHIPS RELIABLY JAMMED, AT THE COST OF ALL SIGNIFICANT TANK (OH, AND TRY FITTING 3 SMARTBOMBS AFTER THE PLATE YOU NEED TO KEEP ALIVE LONG ENOUGH TO KILL THE DRONES), AND ONLY IF THE OPPOSING FLEET IS A RACIAL RAINBOW (OR YOU PICKED AN UNBALANCED PATTERN AND HOPED YOU GUESSED RIGHT), AND ONLY IF NOBODY FITS ECCM.

AGAIN, IF YOU'RE SOLO, YOUR SOLUTION TO FALCONS IS TO NOT FIGHT PEOPLE WHO ARE BRINGING FALCONS, JUST LIKE WHEN SOLO YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T FIGHT PEOPLE WHO BROUGHT ANY OTHER RECON, OR ANY OTHER FRIENDS.


This should be repeated, in all caps, bold and underlined, probably a couple times.