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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Ark Anhammar
GO' R0V
Pandemic Horde
#3921 - 2012-10-02 07:58:08 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Hmmm.

Cut Missile Distance like this.

* Standard 20km
* Heavy 40km
* Cruise 80km

Then remove Precision Missiles all together. Change them to Javelin Missiles with lower Dmg at the Following Ranges.

* Standard 30km
* Heavy 60km
* Cruise 120km

Now add in ships that get a 10% Velocity Bonus and it looks like this.

T1 / Faction

* Standard 30km
* Heavy 60km
* Cruise 120km

T2 Javelin

* Standard 45km
* Heavy 90km
* Cruise 180km

Add in a 10% Velocity Bonus on T2 Tracking Mods and whatever works for tracking scripts and you are left with a reasonably good set of weapons once Cruise Missile Ships are balanced. Cut Heavy Dmg by about 5-7.5%. The Tengu gets it's 7.5% RoF and 5% Kin Dmg bonus turned into a 10% Rof Bonus which cuts the Kin part so PvE'ers are mostly happy. Change the Drakes Kin Dmg to RoF then decide if the Drake keeps its Tank Bonus and has half its range cut or gets Velocity Bonus and keeps a good amount of range.

Then any other Medium LR weapons like Med Beams, Med Rails that fall short of this, handle the problem with both their ship stats (Tier Removal Base Stat Changes / Bonus Changes) and the Weapons Fitting / Stats themselves. At that point the Dmg would be mostly balanced and more Medium LR Weapons and the ships that use them making them better in the mid range role with good Dmg (35-60KM) while having an option to strike further (70-100ish KM) for less Dmg.

More people should "like" this post to get through to CCP that this suggestion is great!
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#3922 - 2012-10-02 08:03:35 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:


I simply deny the fact there is a reason to nerf something, just because its good (or maybe even better than other things) as long as its neither the best nor the only strong/OP thing in this game. As long as Winmatar dominate everything there is no need to nerf Caldaris strong ships and weapons. Simple as that.


So what you're saying is that you think the Vargur/Mach are overpowered at L4 missions, but we shouldn't nerf them because of ECM?

I see.

Actually I don't. :picard:
Sigras
Conglomo
#3923 - 2012-10-02 08:06:23 UTC
Yank Sin wrote:
To be blunt I still see my Tengu that I spent for ever to train for turning to a wimpy shadow of its former glory. The good old days of target locking and killing rats at over 100km will be a fond memory of the past. Would you tell a great white shark to take out its teeth because it kills to much? No you would not. You would sit back and watch a killing machine at work.

so youre idea is to . . . leave the Tengu totally overpowered?

You realize that after the change, youll be able to put one (1) range rig in and achieve > 100 km range plus your missiles will now be moving faster meaning less wasted ammo volleys; look what you have to do to the loki, proteus or legion to get them to go 100 km . . . and they do less damage there too . . .

yes, the tengu is getting a nerf because thats exactly what they needed.
Astriela
Tax Cheaters
#3924 - 2012-10-02 08:11:04 UTC
Personal feedback to new changes:
- guided missile precision: really nice change, long overdue imo - HAMs currently look good on paper but kinda suck in reality, this will bring them much closer to being useful, same with torps; this is also small boost to rockets, but I have limited experience with them, so can't give much feedback
- light missiles: not really using them, so hard to give any useful feedback
- heavy missiles: changes look very reasonable, especially coupled with improvement to javelins and furies - it not actually gives pilot a choice - furies as short ranged ammo rather then universal thing to use
- HAMs: changes look quite good as well
- TDs and TEs: would be nice to see (rough) numbers in plan for this one, but I understand reasons for holding changes back for now
overall I can give only positive feedback on this one
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3925 - 2012-10-02 08:34:49 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:


I simply deny the fact there is a reason to nerf something, just because its good (or maybe even better than other things) as long as its neither the best nor the only strong/OP thing in this game. As long as Winmatar dominate everything there is no need to nerf Caldaris strong ships and weapons. Simple as that.


So what you're saying is that you think the Vargur/Mach are overpowered at L4 missions, but we shouldn't nerf them because of ECM?

I see.

Actually I don't. :picard:


I see you are strong in not getting the point. We talk about a ship nerf for Caldari here. My point is, if every race has strong ships for some aspects its more or less balanced. If one race has all strong ships for every aspect (except some ewar specs) its not balanced. Nerfing Drake and Tengu helps Winmatar to be OP even more, so no, this is not balance for me.

About nerfing Vargur and Machariel to be on par with its peers its something different, I agree here.
Sigras
Conglomo
#3926 - 2012-10-02 08:35:27 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
I simply deny the fact there is a reason to nerf something, just because its good (or maybe even better than other things) as long as its neither the best nor the only strong/OP thing in this game. As long as Winmatar dominate everything there is no need to nerf Caldaris strong ships and weapons. Simple as that.

I accept your premise i reject your conclusion . . .

Your premise is that you should focus on the stuff thats most out of balance first. This is true

Your conclusion is that caldari ships are not as good as minmatar ships in every category and this is simply not true.

Right now the simple fact is that HMLs are the best long range weapon in the game by a wide margin. They have the best range, the best alpha, the best DPS and no cap usage.

So following your premise, they did the right thing and nerfed the HMLs which were most out of balance.

People will argue that the drake and tengu were the real problems; i submit that if you nerfed those two ships, you would just see a bunch of nighthawks take their place; the drake and tengu are just the most convenient platform to carry the most powerful ranged weapon on.

Still others will argue that missiles never do full damage to their target as there is almost always some damage reduction due to the way that the missile damage formula works.
Did you know that there is a similar damage reduction applied to turrets? in fact, as the chance to hit goes down, so does the possible damage applied by each shot that does hit.
If the target and you are not moving, the chance to hit is 100% and your gun will do anywhere from 51% to 150% damage with a 1% chance of a wrecking hit. This averages out to about 100% damage over time.
If your chance to hit is 50% your gun will do anywhere from 1% to 100% damage when it does it with a 1% chance of a wrecking hit which averages out to about 50% over time. This means not only are you missing half the time when you do hit, youre only doing half damage, so a 50% chance to hit is more like 25% DPS
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3927 - 2012-10-02 08:38:36 UTC
Astriela wrote:

- heavy missiles: changes look very reasonable, especially coupled with improvement to javelins and furies - it not actually gives pilot a choice - furies as short ranged ammo rather then universal thing to use


Except one thing: there are no Javelins for Heavy Missiles. If there were, things would be closer to balance maybe, but like that its just: HML are no longer long range. Period. And out-dpsed in shorter-medium ranges, so no longer viable at all :)
Signal11th
#3928 - 2012-10-02 08:42:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
Sigras wrote:
Yank Sin wrote:
To be blunt I still see my Tengu that I spent for ever to train for turning to a wimpy shadow of its former glory. The good old days of target locking and killing rats at over 100km will be a fond memory of the past. Would you tell a great white shark to take out its teeth because it kills to much? No you would not. You would sit back and watch a killing machine at work.

so youre idea is to . . . leave the Tengu totally overpowered?

You realize that after the change, youll be able to put one (1) range rig in and achieve > 100 km range plus your missiles will now be moving faster meaning less wasted ammo volleys; look what you have to do to the loki, proteus or legion to get them to go 100 km . . . and they do less damage there too . . .

yes, the tengu is getting a nerf because thats exactly what they needed.



Yes and you prove my point from many earlier pages, it's the tengu that needs the nerf not the weapon platform.
When anyone mentions the problems its always the ships they mention first not the missles.

Great nerf the range all they want I rarely have to hit out at anything over 50k anyway. Nerf the tengu then everyone will fly Vagur, Vindi,Mach or whatever the flavour of the month is then guess what because everyone is using them they get nerfed and the continual downward spiral of "being the same" contiunes.


This game needs more content not this continual tinkering that just pisses more people off than it actually pleases.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#3929 - 2012-10-02 08:48:38 UTC
I like the new changes. Especially holding back on making the TDs the new God Mod.

But that explosion radius nerf might screw over Tengus pretty bad in PvE content. They don't have drones, so elite frigs/web drones are gonna be an utter biatch to kill.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3930 - 2012-10-02 08:51:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Sigras wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
I simply deny the fact there is a reason to nerf something, just because its good (or maybe even better than other things) as long as its neither the best nor the only strong/OP thing in this game. As long as Winmatar dominate everything there is no need to nerf Caldaris strong ships and weapons. Simple as that.

I accept your premise i reject your conclusion . . .

Your premise is that you should focus on the stuff thats most out of balance first. This is true

Your conclusion is that caldari ships are not as good as minmatar ships in every category and this is simply not true.

Right now the simple fact is that HMLs are the best long range weapon in the game by a wide margin. They have the best range, the best alpha, the best DPS and no cap usage.

So following your premise, they did the right thing and nerfed the HMLs which were most out of balance.


On paper they look like that. IN game though, they are only in one specific PvP area out of line, in null sec blobs. Will explain more to this later.

In PvE they are out of line compared to their peers, but not out of line compared to other high end PvE stuff: the Tengu is not exactly "cheap" PvE ship, so comparing it to best other mission runners is reasonable. It shines in kinetic damage scenarios, everywhere else its a fair bit behind due to the damage bonus. Still its better than Golems and CNRs in most cases. But its noticable worse than Machariels, Paladins, Vargurs and Nightmares, and in all non-kin missions by a bigger margin. My conclusion is: while being a strong PvE system on a Drake and a Tengu, its still not out of line too much since there are better other systems (ship/weapon) around. Which are all non-Caldari except the Mare which has a small Caldari core :)

Sigras wrote:


People will argue that the drake and tengu were the real problems; i submit that if you nerfed those two ships, you would just see a bunch of nighthawks take their place; the drake and tengu are just the most convenient platform to carry the most powerful ranged weapon on.


No, you wouldnt. The NH is broken compared to the Drake - it has not enough PG and the slotlayout is also not optimal for a BC/Shieldtank in PvP. Its far more expensive and requires many skills (which is good) and would not replace the Drake in PvP apart from some small gang stuff at all. Nullsec fleets need cheap and easy to train ships.

In PvE the NH could perform well (it does already now), but is worse than a Tengu atm. It does everything a fair bit worse, tank, DPS, speed, locking range, fighting range. And needs so much more skills, thats why its not used too much.

So the gap would be even bigger than now from best missile ship (now Tengu, then CNR/Golem/NH) to the best turret ships, if you nerfed Tengus... Balance? No, I dont think so. Nerfing Tengus and in the same time make Golems/CNR/Raven/NH viable for PvE and/or PvP, so they can compete with the best (by either buffing them or nerfing top!)? Then it would be balanced. But we are so far from that ..

Atm HML dominate in one single aspect: Drake nullsec blobs. This is only happening thanks to doomsday device change, else BC-fleets would be obsolete in null. To get rid of them no nerf for HML or Drakes would be needed, just make CMs and Ravens work for PvP, they should be a natural counter to BCs with high speed, but moon-like sig sizes. Raven fleets with CM would obliterate Drake fleets. They would be a bit more expensive though, and need more skills. And, they would not be BC-sized, but BS, therefor easier to counter for other BS-fleets. I am sure this would bring balance to nullsec, and still not kill balance somewhere else.

With range nerfs for HML this could maybe also achieved, but atm we simply kill HML as a "longrange"system. There is no rangebonused low dps ammo for HML, you know ...
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3931 - 2012-10-02 08:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Astriela wrote:

- heavy missiles: changes look very reasonable, especially coupled with improvement to javelins and furies - it not actually gives pilot a choice - furies as short ranged ammo rather then universal thing to use


Except one thing: there are no Javelins for Heavy Missiles. If there were, things would be closer to balance maybe, but like that its just: HML are no longer long range. Period. And out-dpsed in shorter-medium ranges, so no longer viable at all :)



You act as if the the missile ship dont have twice (triple in the case of tengu) of pretty much any other shield configured battlecruiser.......or are you going to throw the r3tarded. HG slave argument back out.

If you are in point range with a long range turret you are doing it wrong.


Drakes in groups are just as bad in low sec, and yes I've been jumped by drakes in low. Here is a hint, don't drive a Drake like a Cane if you have 60km missile range and you are shooting a hurricane point blank, YOU ****** up, you warp at 40 km and turn away he either has to chase you (you win) or bail.....he won't survive long enough to run you down and kill you if you are going the other direction.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3932 - 2012-10-02 09:02:17 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Astriela wrote:

- heavy missiles: changes look very reasonable, especially coupled with improvement to javelins and furies - it not actually gives pilot a choice - furies as short ranged ammo rather then universal thing to use


Except one thing: there are no Javelins for Heavy Missiles. If there were, things would be closer to balance maybe, but like that its just: HML are no longer long range. Period. And out-dpsed in shorter-medium ranges, so no longer viable at all :)



You act as if the the missile shop dont have twicw (triple in the case of tengu) of pretty much any other shield configured battlecruiser.......or are you going to throw the r3tarded. HG slave argument back out.

If you are in point range with a long range turret you are doing it wrong.


Drakes have not the speed of Canes, so they cant dictate range like Canes. True or false?

With the new change they would also not have the range to fight back on the distance where they should normally work - long ranges.

Besides, HG slaves exist in low sec PvP. In fact most people I know use them in their armor ships in lowsec, and also highsec.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3933 - 2012-10-02 09:13:07 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:

Drakes and tengus are not only seen in nullsec or wormhole, they are also in lowsec. Infact, they are everywhere ! Everywhere, from uber nullsec scale of 4000 man size fleet to solo pvp in low sec, and I don't even talk about pve where they are legions (lol, this ship should swap its name with the tengu I guess...)

And now, the changes look more like a plain buff, with faster missiles and usable T2 ammo, and people still cry to the nerf ?!!

For the range BTW, YOU, missiles users, cry about the TD/TE/TC change when it was an ubber buff. Half the nerf, half the buff. I'm affraid these changes won't change anything because HML are still ridiculously superior to long range medium weapons, but we can expect them to not be superior to Large long range weapons at least...

I'm losing faith in this community... And those saying that caldari worth nothing at pvp are the worse ignorant here.

But above all, please, Please, PLEASE ! READ THE THREAD !!! Yes it is a long one, but even CCP did it, and if half the posters have read, it would be half this length, or maybe even a third of it...
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3934 - 2012-10-02 09:18:27 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:

Drakes have not the speed of Canes, so they cant dictate range like Canes. True or false?

With the new change they would also not have the range to fight back on the distance where they should normally work - long ranges.

Besides, HG slaves exist in low sec PvP. In fact most people I know use them in their armor ships in lowsec, and also highsec.

Drakes have 50% more ehp than the hurricane, and can be nanoed. If not, the cane is armor tanked and is slower. 50km range IS long range. You also have rigs to extend range, and you can then achieve some 70-90 km. This is UBER lang range for medium weapons. Oh, and you have TWO or THREE TIME the dps of the cane at that range.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3935 - 2012-10-02 09:28:56 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Astriela wrote:

- heavy missiles: changes look very reasonable, especially coupled with improvement to javelins and furies - it not actually gives pilot a choice - furies as short ranged ammo rather then universal thing to use


Except one thing: there are no Javelins for Heavy Missiles. If there were, things would be closer to balance maybe, but like that its just: HML are no longer long range. Period. And out-dpsed in shorter-medium ranges, so no longer viable at all :)



You act as if the the missile shop dont have twicw (triple in the case of tengu) of pretty much any other shield configured battlecruiser.......or are you going to throw the r3tarded. HG slave argument back out.

If you are in point range with a long range turret you are doing it wrong.


Drakes have not the speed of Canes, so they cant dictate range like Canes. True or false?

With the new change they would also not have the range to fight back on the distance where they should normally work - long ranges.

Besides, HG slaves exist in low sec PvP. In fact most people I know use them in their armor ships in lowsec, and also highsec.


1) A nano cane is 300m/s. If you aren't putting a nano on your Drake (or two) that is you issue, the ship still has a 13,000 point buffer....y'know like a MAELSTROM. I wouldn't try to fight an AC with a long range turret either, ever with a 720mm cane hevhas a tank and DPS advantage. Not mention fit a frigging web, that cane isn't doing 600dps if he can't get in you face, its called falloff.

2) A hurricane with barrage is doing maybe 150dps at the end of point range AND its shooting your strong resists, barrage only comes in explosive/kinetic.....with EMP he can't break your recharge.

3) In armor ships? Yeah so. Just burn away, armor ships can catch a cold, a shield Drake will FLAT outrun a repper mrym, much less anything with a plate. ...and lol hi sec, station hammers are a poor way to balance anything. when I lived in low I much preferred snakes over slaves......I have clones with both, but you'll rarely catch me in them because of bubbles. Hell with that. Besides, Drakes are "only overpowered in null blobs" where no one is using pirate implants unless the are in a cap anyway.

Actually isn't crime watch supposed to end the neutral logi fleet. I may hang out arcs couple market hubs for that one.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3936 - 2012-10-02 09:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

And now, the changes look more like a plain buff, with faster missiles and usable T2 ammo, and people still cry to the nerf ?!!


Faster missiles(~15%) with far less range (25.5 % less) and no option for long range low DPS? Thats not a buff, dude. T2 Furies were usable before in certain conditions, now they are plain worthless (nerfed in every single aspect!).

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

For the range BTW, YOU, missiles users, cry about the TD/TE/TC change when it was an ubber buff. Half the nerf, half the buff. I'm affraid these changes won't change anything because HML are still ridiculously superior to long range medium weapons, but we can expect them to not be superior to Large long range weapons at least...


They never have been superior to long range large turrets. Thats just BS you bring that up here :)

Besides: for PvE HML are inferior to the best turrets there too (large AC and Tachys) in many aspects, still they are used because they are the best missile system atm. I see no problem in nerfing them, if missile users get something else: a working missile BS which is not Winmatar would be a good start. Buff CM/Raven, and HML are a non-issue in PvP, and will be significantly less used in PvE.

To those who say Drakes are used in lowsec and so on - ofc they are. I never said they are not. Still, Drakes are not *overused* there, the only place where you see too many is nullsec. Period.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3937 - 2012-10-02 09:39:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

And now, the changes look more like a plain buff, with faster missiles and usable T2 ammo, and people still cry to the nerf ?!!




They never have been superior to long range large turrets. Thats just BS you bring that up here :) HML are inferior to the best turrets (large AC and Tachys) in many aspects, still they are used because they are the best missile system atm. I see no problem in nerfing them, if missile users get something else: a working missile BS which is not Winmatar would be a good start. Buff CM/Raven, and HML are a non-issue in PvP, and will be significantly less used in PvE.

To those who say Drakes are used in lowsec and so on - ofc they are. I never said they are not. Still, Drakes are not *overused* there, the only place where you see too many is nullsec. Period


The fact that you have to comare HMLs to BATTLESHIP weapons isnt somewhat telling? Not to mention, when was the last time you saw a Tachyon battleship on a killmail? Last time I saw tachyon anything it was PL with tach Oracles.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3938 - 2012-10-02 09:42:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

And now, the changes look more like a plain buff, with faster missiles and usable T2 ammo, and people still cry to the nerf ?!!


Faster missiles(~15%) with far less range (25.5 % less) and no option for long range low DPS? Thats not a buff, dude. T2 Furies were usable before in certain conditions, now they are plain worthless (nerfed in every single aspect!).

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

For the range BTW, YOU, missiles users, cry about the TD/TE/TC change when it was an ubber buff. Half the nerf, half the buff. I'm affraid these changes won't change anything because HML are still ridiculously superior to long range medium weapons, but we can expect them to not be superior to Large long range weapons at least...


They never have been superior to long range large turrets. Thats just BS you bring that up here :) HML are inferior to the best turrets (large AC and Tachys) in many aspects, still they are used because they are the best missile system atm. I see no problem in nerfing them, if missile users get something else: a working missile BS which is not Winmatar would be a good start. Buff CM/Raven, and HML are a non-issue in PvP, and will be significantly less used in PvE.

To those who say Drakes are used in lowsec and so on - ofc they are. I never said they are not. Still, Drakes are not *overused* there, the only place where you see too many is nullsec. Period.

Good job comparing HML to AC and Tachyons... lol. Are you trolling ? How many medium Railgun boat do you see in space ? And medium Beams ? Hell, even arty cane are not so common, and arties have an insane alpha to play with, but you don't hunt anything larger than a destroyer with arty, because the dps is too low.

Please, the only fact that you can compare HML with anything else than medium long range turret is a proof of their OPness.

PS : removing T2 ammo penalties is a plain buff in my definition.
PS 2 : adding more damage to T2 ammo is also a buff.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3939 - 2012-10-02 09:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Whiite
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
I like the new changes. Especially holding back on making the TDs the new God Mod.

But that explosion radius nerf might screw over Tengus pretty bad in PvE content. They don't have drones, so elite frigs/web drones are gonna be an utter biatch to kill.



I doubt that, yes it will be a little harder to kill smaller ships, but not to a point that it becomes a real concern.

From personal experiance in 0.0 and low sec plexing I can say that although annoying Those frigates never became a real danger. To be honest the only danger those frigates bring is that you're being scrambled the minute you get probed.

And that is in a Covert-opps, nullifier set up, when you have the ejector bay and the fuel catalyst is will be even less a problem.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3940 - 2012-10-02 09:48:36 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

And now, the changes look more like a plain buff, with faster missiles and usable T2 ammo, and people still cry to the nerf ?!!




They never have been superior to long range large turrets. Thats just BS you bring that up here :) HML are inferior to the best turrets (large AC and Tachys) in many aspects, still they are used because they are the best missile system atm. I see no problem in nerfing them, if missile users get something else: a working missile BS which is not Winmatar would be a good start. Buff CM/Raven, and HML are a non-issue in PvP, and will be significantly less used in PvE.

To those who say Drakes are used in lowsec and so on - ofc they are. I never said they are not. Still, Drakes are not *overused* there, the only place where you see too many is nullsec. Period


The fact that you have to comare HMLs to BATTLESHIP weapons isnt somewhat telling? Not to mention, when was the last time you saw a Tachyon battleship on a killmail? Last time I saw tachyon anything it was PL with tach Oracles.


I already agreed on the fact HML are better than MEDIUM sized turrets atm. The fact I compare them with BS-sized turrets shows exactly the opposite of what you try to show: HML are not there because they are so massively OP, they are there because the BS-sized missile system are so MASSIVELY UP. Tengu wouldnt be your bet, if CNR or Golem would outperform it (which they should!), and then Tengus and HML would be a non-issue in PvE. Apart from that, they are already a non-issue in MY book in PvE, just because there are ships with turrets which are better. There are no missile ships which are better though! Now, where do we need the balance?

I did agree also on the fact there had to be some changes - read my postings and dont be so ignorant. I made suggestions like buffing turrets in a way, they not deal more absolute DPS (which they shouldnt) but the ranged DPS would be more in line with missiles. The damage graphs should be close together most of the time. This could easily be achieved by either buffing the turrets or giving missiles a dedicated long range ammo for HML (and Lights and CM too, maybe).

Drake would be non-existent in nullsec with CM/Ravens being no longer UP.

Seriously, why do you deny this simple truth?