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Rebalanced mining - hulk vs mack - tweaks needed?

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#81 - 2012-10-01 23:06:09 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:


Skiff's biggest problem lies in the mining laser being overly strong resulting in a lot of near empty roid cycles (lesser extent the mack suffers the same). A lot of the HS areas are mined out so you're going to have to spend a lot of time finding a system with large roids to run your mack for an "eon". Of course that will only work for a few days at most before you run out of large roids. The replenishment won't be sufficient to allow you to keep pulling +2100 m3 of ore for long.


No. The Skiffs biggest problem is that the mack is filling its role as the tanky ship.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#82 - 2012-10-01 23:28:29 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

I mine from time to time, and I'd rather suck on a shotgun than use a skiff or a hulk in hisec.

If I have 1 char, a skiff is overly tanked and under-performing, the mack requires attention once every eon, and the hulk requires attention once every few minutes.

If I have 2 or more chars, the skiff'll still underperform, the hulk will still require attention once every few minutes (but you can at least still use an orca to store ore in to reduce the number of trips to the station), or you can be non-dumb and use two or more macks and overall get more yield for less effort.

So, pray tell, why should I bother with anything other than the mack?


Skiff isn't being used right now because nobody owns them. There weren't any being used so the fleets haven't updated and I doubt they will for a long time to come but a Skiff bonus is 200% and with a 66% reduction in cycle on Ice that's a fast 12 chunks of Ice. Using a Skiff you can actually Ninja mine Ice in null sec and tell the bots to stick theirs up their ass. Even if they give it to you the logistics of getting it to your POS in null makes it easier to just skiff mine for a few hrs with a fleet.
Buzz Boolean
Bung Cheese Bandits
#83 - 2012-10-02 02:20:14 UTC
Do whatever you want. My big brother, Urgg Boolean, and I own all three ships: enough for a fleet of each type. So, do what you want and we'll just fly whatever.

Having said that, I doubt seriuously that there will be any changes to mining barges any time soon.

The only tweak I want to see is the lock limit on the Mack raised to 5. Lock=4 was fine, even supurflouous, when it was an Ice miner. Now that it is the solo rock tub, it will benefit from 5 locks so we can keep our roid rotation on 4 locks and deal with rats on the 5th.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2012-10-02 02:29:43 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Skiff isn't being used right now because nobody owns them. There weren't any being used so the fleets haven't updated and I doubt they will for a long time to come but a Skiff bonus is 200% and with a 66% reduction in cycle on Ice that's a fast 12 chunks of Ice. Using a Skiff you can actually Ninja mine Ice in null sec and tell the bots to stick theirs up their ass. Even if they give it to you the logistics of getting it to your POS in null makes it easier to just skiff mine for a few hrs with a fleet.

Except for the fact the 200% bonus isn't to ice mining, just ore mining, just like the duration bonus only applies to ice mining, not ore mining.

So, about that "90% of this thread is people who don't mine trying to tell CCP how mining should be" statement ...

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2012-10-02 02:33:54 UTC
Mining lasers should have a chance at backfiring and blowing up the mining vessel

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#86 - 2012-10-02 03:06:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Bart Starr wrote:


"Overall, Cargo space is the most highly valued trait in an Exhumer."

Its why, prior to Aug 8, 2/3 of all Exhumers (Hulks/Macks) were cargo fit.
And why today, Macks/Retrievers are dominant.

Go ahead, dispute it so we can laugh at you.

Like many others, I'm going to call this whole thread on exhumer balance as baloney.

If you want to play SOLO and virtually AFK your mining experience then Mack might well be better than a Hulk, but flying solo and doing it AFK were never intended by CCP.

For those that ACTIVELY MINE in GROUPS, the HULK is BEST and for mine (pun intended), it always has been .

- If you're a miner who plays with himself, then laugh away.
- If you're a miner who works for their stuff, they're the ones who will do the laughing.

No change needed. Period.

PS: And you know, it's quite funny hearing people talk about gank tanks bla bla when exhumers are in the mix. I'm not sure that Hulks (or ANY exhumer) was actually designed to be a target, let alone a "profitable venture" for a ganker. But, I suppose, it is Eve.....

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#87 - 2012-10-02 05:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ocih
Lord Zim wrote:
Ocih wrote:
Skiff isn't being used right now because nobody owns them. There weren't any being used so the fleets haven't updated and I doubt they will for a long time to come but a Skiff bonus is 200% and with a 66% reduction in cycle on Ice that's a fast 12 chunks of Ice. Using a Skiff you can actually Ninja mine Ice in null sec and tell the bots to stick theirs up their ass. Even if they give it to you the logistics of getting it to your POS in null makes it easier to just skiff mine for a few hrs with a fleet.

Except for the fact the 200% bonus isn't to ice mining, just ore mining, just like the duration bonus only applies to ice mining, not ore mining.

So, about that "90% of this thread is people who don't mine trying to tell CCP how mining should be" statement ...


About that 90% remark, it still holds true. I don't own a Skiff yet for the same reason most people don't. I can't confirm if the 200% bonus grants 2000 M3 per cycle or not with Ice harvesters on. (as per the way they identify cycle volume for Ice) but one thing I am sure of, my motives are in the favor of miners. Farming mail was never part of EVE for me.

---
Added

Skiff with a T2 Ice miner has no bonus from the roles bonus.
118.74 second cycle makes it a ninja miner but Macki 237.48 Ice cycle with 2 harvesters means the Skiff would not likely make it main stream as even a Null sec Ninja Ice miner, without the roles bonus to 2000 M3 in the single harvester.

No rigs, no fleet bonus, 71,000 EHP
You want tank? You got tank.
Herr Hammer Draken
#88 - 2012-10-02 05:47:12 UTC
I like the miners as they are right now. If the op's suggested idea was implemented, then I would switch to the hulk and get an alt trained up in an orca and plex both accounts. As it is now I only have one account and I pay cash for it.

What I do not like about this is that I would have to spend some X hours every month mining just to plex both accounts.
It would take some of the fun out of the game for me. Right now I do what I please when it pleases me with no outside pressure to have to earn X by Y time. Also once you begin to plex you become tied to the market value of plex.

All things that I would prefer to avoid if possible. I enjoy eve now and it would become more work than fun I think if I had to plex every month. I do enjoy fleeting up now when I do for the orca bonus. But mining is not why I play the game. If the hulk and the Mack switched ehp's mining would become more of the job to pay for eve for me.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#89 - 2012-10-02 06:19:54 UTC
Didn't read the whole thread but thought the OP was trying to be serious about this and not troll...

Quote:
Miners only care about three things: cargo, yield, ehp. And not equally.
After scanning thousands of hulks/macks over the years, I found:

-Cargo fits (about 60% of the time)
-yield fits (about 30% of the time)
-ehp fits (about 10% of the time)


From the old setups obviously. Ice is huge. Hence the huge cargo bay to put the ice in it. Yield fits were for hulks. Secondly, solo hulks or fleet hulks? Or even a hulk and an Orca? Because why would you have a cargo fit for a ship dumping into another ship? Why would you still?

Saying miners primarily are concerned with cargo is silly. Solo miners are. Ice miners are.

All CCP did was diversify.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
ashley Eoner
#90 - 2012-10-02 06:28:21 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Well since you're solo mining and the mack is well supposed to be for the solo miner I'd say mission accomplished. If you were running a fleet hulks would win out by a mile though.

Skiff's biggest problem lies in the mining laser being overly strong resulting in a lot of near empty roid cycles (lesser extent the mack suffers the same). A lot of the HS areas are mined out so you're going to have to spend a lot of time finding a system with large roids to run your mack for an "eon". Of course that will only work for a few days at most before you run out of large roids. The replenishment won't be sufficient to allow you to keep pulling 2300 m3 of ore for long.

Let's assume I have 1 pilot. I can expend a lot of energy to get 100% yield, but I lose a lot to travel/docking, or I can expend a little to get 90% yield, and dock up once every eon.

Let's assume I have 2 pilots. I can expend a lot of effort to get 200% yield, but I lose a lot to travelling/docking, or I can have 1 hulk and 1 orca to get a little over 100% and no travel time, or I can use 2 macks to get 180%, and lose some time once every eon to travel/docking.

Let's assume I have 3 pilots. 300%, lots of effort, lots of travel/docking time if 3 hulks, a little over 200% if I use 1 orca and 2 hulks, little to no yield lost due to the orca being docked, or 270% with 3 macks, and very little travel/dock time.

So, again, why should I ever use anything other than a mack?
You're still solo mining in all those examples which is what the mack was designed for..
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2012-10-02 09:19:39 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
You're still solo mining in all those examples which is what the mack was designed for..

No, I said 3 pilots, not 3 characters. You have to go up a ways before the yield increase of using 1 orca and the rest hulks outpaces all macks, and you still have to factor in the act that if you use hulks and an orca, everything is going to go to the char with the orca. And as a result, they'll have to somehow figure out how much ore was mined by whom and pay out accordingly, whereas if they use just macks, each person can easily keep a record of how much he has mined himself.

And a fleet of macks could easily warp in to a belt at their own separate spot and just sit there and suck up rocks within their area of reach, instead of falling over eachother to not mine the same rock while still being within the range of the orca.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#92 - 2012-10-02 09:21:09 UTC
OP is wrong, if miners cared about EHP then hulkagedon wouldn't have existed.
Herr Hammer Draken
#93 - 2012-10-02 09:44:55 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
You're still solo mining in all those examples which is what the mack was designed for..

No, I said 3 pilots, not 3 characters. You have to go up a ways before the yield increase of using 1 orca and the rest hulks outpaces all macks, and you still have to factor in the act that if you use hulks and an orca, everything is going to go to the char with the orca. And as a result, they'll have to somehow figure out how much ore was mined by whom and pay out accordingly, whereas if they use just macks, each person can easily keep a record of how much he has mined himself.

And a fleet of macks could easily warp in to a belt at their own separate spot and just sit there and suck up rocks within their area of reach, instead of falling over eachother to not mine the same rock while still being within the range of the orca.


2 hulks with an orca have a mining range of 55km while being in range of the Orca. Covers almost the entire asteroid field.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#94 - 2012-10-02 12:36:25 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
OP is wrong, if miners cared about EHP then hulkagedon wouldn't have existed.


They cared enough to whine about it on the forums but not enough to fit a tank in gameStraight

Sarcasm aside, the mack needs an EHP nerf or the skiff will be just as unwanted as it was pre barge buff.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-10-02 15:13:13 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
You're still solo mining in all those examples which is what the mack was designed for..

No, I said 3 pilots, not 3 characters. You have to go up a ways before the yield increase of using 1 orca and the rest hulks outpaces all macks, and you still have to factor in the act that if you use hulks and an orca, everything is going to go to the char with the orca. And as a result, they'll have to somehow figure out how much ore was mined by whom and pay out accordingly, whereas if they use just macks, each person can easily keep a record of how much he has mined himself.

And a fleet of macks could easily warp in to a belt at their own separate spot and just sit there and suck up rocks within their area of reach, instead of falling over eachother to not mine the same rock while still being within the range of the orca.


2 hulks with an orca have a mining range of 55km while being in range of the Orca. Covers almost the entire asteroid field.


You can slowboat while mining so that range is useless. Especially for a hulk which can't even mine for 2 full cycle IIRC. It was at 3 hulk + orca where the tide started changing over full mack fleet for best total yield with something like a 3 min accounted to warp in and out to unload your ore bay.

The real question about the yield role of the hulk is how big is a mining fleet in CCP's mind. If they base thier idea on a 4+ ship fleep minimum, then they are technically spot on. If it was supposed to be lower such as 2 ship fleet was supposed to beat mack, then the yield of the mack is too high.

The EHP is off too and the single stripper configuration of the skiff is another negative point for it. Lot of wasted yield on that 3k m3 cycle.
ashley Eoner
#96 - 2012-10-03 00:19:59 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
You're still solo mining in all those examples which is what the mack was designed for..

No, I said 3 pilots, not 3 characters. You have to go up a ways before the yield increase of using 1 orca and the rest hulks outpaces all macks, and you still have to factor in the act that if you use hulks and an orca, everything is going to go to the char with the orca. And as a result, they'll have to somehow figure out how much ore was mined by whom and pay out accordingly, whereas if they use just macks, each person can easily keep a record of how much he has mined himself.

And a fleet of macks could easily warp in to a belt at their own separate spot and just sit there and suck up rocks within their area of reach, instead of falling over eachother to not mine the same rock while still being within the range of the orca.

You said "I have" over and over again not "we have".. That means you're soloing..

What you're describing isn't fleet mining it's solo mining while in a party..
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2012-10-03 00:43:05 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
You said "I have" over and over again not "we have".. That means you're soloing..

Yeah, I'm going to just ignore your quibbling over irrelevant details while missing the point.

ashley Eoner wrote:
What you're describing isn't fleet mining it's solo mining while in a party..

And that's how many percent of the mining going on in eve today?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
ashley Eoner
#98 - 2012-10-03 01:44:51 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Lord Zim wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
You said "I have" over and over again not "we have".. That means you're soloing..

Yeah, I'm going to just ignore your quibbling over irrelevant details while missing the point.

ashley Eoner wrote:
What you're describing isn't fleet mining it's solo mining while in a party..

And that's how many percent of the mining going on in eve today?
Irrelevant details? More like inconvenient details for your "argument". It's blatantly obvious from your statements that you have no interest in an honest discussion. All that matters to you is your irrational crusade against mackinaws.

Your second point is completely irrelevant and your inability to see so doesn't bode well for your intellectual capabilities..
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#99 - 2012-10-03 02:04:30 UTC
Reading through, I'd propose an alternative approach. Change it up a little so the Skiff is actually more yield than the Mack.
One way to do this would be to change the yield bonuses on the Strip Miners to time bonuses (Matching the ice).
So the skiff ends up with far less wasted yield than it currently has.

Then yield goes
Hulk > Skiff > Mack
EHP goes
Skiff > Mack > Hulk
And Cargo goes
Mack > Skiff > Hulk

Solo miners tend to care about cargo. So will normally choose the Mack still, but some will choose the Skiff due to it being better yield & EHP.
Fleet miners will always go for best yield regardless of the other factors since they have an Orca, so will always go Hulk no matter that it's worst in the other cat
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#100 - 2012-10-03 02:15:26 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Reading through, I'd propose an alternative approach. Change it up a little so the Skiff is actually more yield than the Mack.
One way to do this would be to change the yield bonuses on the Strip Miners to time bonuses (Matching the ice).
So the skiff ends up with far less wasted yield than it currently has.

Then yield goes
Hulk > Skiff > Mack
EHP goes
Skiff > Mack > Hulk
And Cargo goes
Mack > Skiff > Hulk

Solo miners tend to care about cargo. So will normally choose the Mack still, but some will choose the Skiff due to it being better yield & EHP.
Fleet miners will always go for best yield regardless of the other factors since they have an Orca, so will always go Hulk no matter that it's worst in the other cat

Right. Just raise the yield on the boat with the most EHP and the second biggest hold.

Balance means you can't have it all. See how in your proposal the Skiff becomes consistently first or second in each category?

That's not balanced anymore than the Mack being first or second in each category is.

You really need each ship to be 1st in one category, 2nd in another, and 3rd in the last.

How is this so confusing that it befuddles even developers?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom