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Dev blog: Brains! NOM NOM!

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Joker Dronemaster
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#781 - 2012-10-01 22:00:13 UTC
Gabrielle Lamb wrote:
What I don't like about the change is that it invalidates one of the few setups that actually works in HOSTILE space. And by hostile I don't mean 0.0 where you have a station 2 jumps off. I mean 0.0 when the closest station you can dock in is 20, 30 or 40 jumps away. Moving that far out of your way to do PVE can only be profitable if you are capable of either bringing a ship that is completely independant of ammo or you have an alt with you that hauls the ammo you need.

For this kind of PVE drones have traditionally been the weapon type of choice and it's the reason I'm currently spending a LOT of time perfecting my drone skills.

Another thing I don't like is how it locks newer players out of important parts of the game. For instance I have a fiend in an alliance that mostly has newer players in it. They recently moved out to 0.0 and are now spending a lot of time doing complexes, sites and anoms with a single Loki tanking while the rest of them do the killing. Anything from week old frigate pilots to Cane and Raven pilots all join in on the party but it's all made possible by that single high SP guy with a full deadspace fit and the tank to do it.

Even a minor change is likely to lock out the majority of these pilots from beeing able to participate without taking heavy losses. Further empowering those that have over those that do not.



This....... all of it.

I'm putting the finishing touches on my deep space exploration setup involving 4 characters and 3 accounts; a DPS fit SIN(Main), tank covert fit T3(Primary alt), Scanner/Covert Cyno character, and a capital holding toon. I've spent the better part of a year working this out and only need to finish the scanning character to make it complete. This nerf could not come at a worse time for me. Especially seeing as how we will not see the supposed benefits of this change for some time. I was also in the process of planning deep space PVE OPs for newer corp members in stealth bombers. To give them incentive to train these skills and get used to BLOPS fleet procedures.

This one change has the very real potential to simply flush all my hard work down the crapper.
Joker Dronemaster
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#782 - 2012-10-01 23:12:05 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
They were not dev hacked domi's. They were T2 fit.

For the final room:
I warped both in at the same time, activated a smartbomb on both killing all the frigs within range, and then I released two flight of light drones to kill off the ships that were still just outside of my range. I then sent one flight of light drones in close to base, even if they were not really doing any damage. Turns out the citidal torp has a low signature and likes to shoot things that are also low sig. Hence it spend the entire time shooting my light drones and doing jack **** while my other domi killed the other stuff.

I was not able to fully tank the full room, but was able to get the room to switch targets by activating specific modules that they don't like when one tank got low.


CCP FoxFour wrote:

It was an entirely T2 fit Domi, minus rigs which were T1. Also no implants.

Basically it was as follows:
2 large remote armor reps, 1 large smart bomb, 3 large energy transfer
cap rechargers and an empty mid slot
4 damage specific hardners, 2 large armor reps, and I can't remember\

I had two sets of sentires, Wardens and Gardes, a flight of light drones, and then some spares.

Not sure on cost of DPS.


Ok so after a bit of EFT warrioring this should be almost exactly what your fit looked like given the information provided.

[Dominix, New Setup 1]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Large Armor Repairer II
Large Armor Repairer II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
ECM - Multispectral Jammer II

Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Energy Transfer Array II
Large Energy Transfer Array II
Large Energy Transfer Array II
Large Graviton Smartbomb II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Garde II x 6
Warden II x6
Hobgoblin II x 10

Noteable stats
DPS :
GARDES - 576
WARDENS - 442

Guristas tank / EHP - 1118 / 69,059
EM tank / EHP - 341 / 30,665

I'm not calling you a liar, but as a previous poster mentioned there are a few things about this setups viability that don't exactly match up with my experiences on TQ. Mainly how either domi survived the inevitable initial torp volley. But we can ignore that for now........

Seeing as how you mentioned one domi had its rack of drones dedicated to tanking the Overseer's sentry it should have taken you at least an hour or more to do this one room. And this setup lacks a cloak. In my experience with null PVE its simply not practical to spend this amount of time running this complex before your getting scanned down by hostile forces even if you are doing it in your own sov with a station a few jumps out. Making a the ability to hit a SS and cloak a very real necessity for most people, thus forcing them to forgo the smartbomb.

Even if you traded the drone damage AMP for an EM hardener you would still only have around 50K EHP toward EM damage; which would still leave you dead in one hit from the Overseer and further reduce your DPS.

Like i said........ I'm not trying to call you a liar, its just that this setups ability to run the complex; much less do it in a practical way doesn't match my own experience.

Maybe I'm just missing some critical bit of information................ What?
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#783 - 2012-10-01 23:35:11 UTC
That is very similar to what I had. I didn't load all my rigs with large CCC, but close enough. I have not personally run The Maze on TQ and so don't have a base line to compare to except what people here and at the office have told me.

When I ran the mission today and landed in the final room the Overseer didn't immediately aggro me. I had been told this was because you need to draw it's aggro by doing something. When it did not aggro immediately I therefor assumed this was normal behavior. We have a test server internally that runs the TQ build. I will run the final room on that and compare. It is sounding like the behavior of this weapon has changed.

Shall attempt to test it ASAP.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Joker Dronemaster
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#784 - 2012-10-01 23:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Joker Dronemaster
CCP FoxFour wrote:
That is very similar to what I had. I didn't load all my rigs with large CCC, but close enough. I have not personally run The Maze on TQ and so don't have a base line to compare to except what people here and at the office have told me.

When I ran the mission today and landed in the final room the Overseer didn't immediately aggro me. I had been told this was because you need to draw it's aggro by doing something. When it did not aggro immediately I therefor assumed this was normal behavior. We have a test server internally that runs the TQ build. I will run the final room on that and compare. It is sounding like the behavior of this weapon has changed.

Shall attempt to test it ASAP.


I am working form memory and it has been a few months since I have run this particular complex. But unless I am mistaken; moving your ship, activating a mod, or shooting a rat should be enough to get its attention.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#785 - 2012-10-02 00:51:19 UTC
Joker Dronemaster wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
That is very similar to what I had. I didn't load all my rigs with large CCC, but close enough. I have not personally run The Maze on TQ and so don't have a base line to compare to except what people here and at the office have told me.

When I ran the mission today and landed in the final room the Overseer didn't immediately aggro me. I had been told this was because you need to draw it's aggro by doing something. When it did not aggro immediately I therefor assumed this was normal behavior. We have a test server internally that runs the TQ build. I will run the final room on that and compare. It is sounding like the behavior of this weapon has changed.

Shall attempt to test it ASAP.


I am working form memory and it has been a few months since I have run this particular complex. But unless I am mistaken; moving your ship, activating a mod, or shooting a rat should be enough to get its attention.



That's been my experience, and if Fox isn't getting aggro from the station/overseer within the first few seconds after rmoving or activating a mod, then indeed the beavior has changed.

I am still interested in the smart bomb issue, and the time issue as well. When I do the MAZE's 5th room (I dual box a Mach and Tengu) it takes the Mach's drones, the Tengu's FoF missiles and then *after I move the mach off) the guns of my BS to deal with thos damn drones, even an officer smartbom each on 2 domis would take forever to kill even the close in drones.

And I mean a LONG time, how many minutes were you sitting there smartbombing frigs Fox before the station shot at something?, becuase if your drones had been out in those minutes to soak up the torp, one or both Domis would be dead, and quick.
Raidal
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#786 - 2012-10-02 07:29:31 UTC
Yay, another way to nerf once more droneboats, i guess il' have to sell my dominix before this one hit and its price is reduced to crap. Also i'll have to forget doing plexes in my ishkur/ishtar for the same reason (i can immagine how fast any flight of drones could be erased in hi lvl complexes, while your lovely tengus can chew through them solo like a mouse in a cheese factory). Way to go CCP you finally ultimately killed the only gallente pve ships in game, and dont give me crap about i can use gall gunboats for that cause i tried them ALL and the only one that doesnt really suck that much is the Kronos, kinda high level game there, not something for newbies.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#787 - 2012-10-02 07:46:17 UTC
Anyone going to comment on the fact that he swapped out ALL of the domi's turrets and only had 1 drone amp in his setup for it to work?

I'm already skilling towards a similar setup for my mision runner team, which will take a while - thanks for having to change 2 years worth of skill plans. I'm opimistic my setup will be a bit less gimped, though ;).

@FoxFour: If i had a bit more feedback on your general GOALS like I asked for before (a'la ECM generates x thread, RR generates y threat, DPS generates z thread - doesn't have to be 100% accurate numbers, but a general idea would be good) i might be able to come up with something else before I have to remap - which is not THAT far off.

Looks like my main will still have to jump on the Tengu bandwaggon for the odd solo mission/plex instead of the drone Proteus I had considered for a while :(
Joker Dronemaster
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#788 - 2012-10-02 07:55:40 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Looks like my main will still have to jump on the Tengu bandwaggon for the odd solo mission/plex instead of the drone Proteus I had considered for a while :(


TBH the Drone Proteus sucks.......... The Ishtar is just an overall better ship if your using drones, especially when you factor in the pricetag difference. Straight My main used to fly a drone Proteus, It has quickly been passed off to my alt for use as a tank.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#789 - 2012-10-02 08:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Chi'Nane T'Kal
Joker Dronemaster wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Looks like my main will still have to jump on the Tengu bandwaggon for the odd solo mission/plex instead of the drone Proteus I had considered for a while :(


TBH the Drone Proteus sucks.......... The Ishtar is just an overall better ship if your using drones, especially when you factor in the pricetag difference. Straight My main used to fly a drone Proteus, It has quickly been passed off to my alt for use as a tank.


Well, my main IS the tank in all of my current setups :). As a heavy drone speed tank it wouldn't have been too bad due to the speed bonus making heavies tolerable. (And all that in the scan bonus setup with probe launcher and stuff)

Of course that is now pretty much obsolete since both, heavies and speed tanking drone boats, will no longer be useable once the nerfbat hits.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#790 - 2012-10-02 10:40:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Maybe this "nerf" to drones is a good thing. It quickly teaches beginners how rubbish drones are. Not only do you have to put up with the terrible drone control interface but they are the only offensive system that can be permanently destroyed during a pvp fight. The nerf highlights the latter point.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#791 - 2012-10-02 11:19:09 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Anyone going to comment on the fact that he swapped out ALL of the domi's turrets and only had 1 drone amp in his setup for it to work?


The fact that a Dev team has focused a considerable amount of work to create a nerf that should kill AFK Domi's once and for all, testing to see if AFK Domi's are impacted by said work?

Not surprising at all.

The fact that said work has a raft of unintended consequences and does not impact AFK Domi's AT ALL (as expected all along)?

Deliciously ironic.
Rengerel en Distel
#792 - 2012-10-02 12:15:51 UTC
Adigard wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Anyone going to comment on the fact that he swapped out ALL of the domi's turrets and only had 1 drone amp in his setup for it to work?


The fact that a Dev team has focused a considerable amount of work to create a nerf that should kill AFK Domi's once and for all, testing to see if AFK Domi's are impacted by said work?

Not surprising at all.

The fact that said work has a raft of unintended consequences and does not impact AFK Domi's AT ALL (as expected all along)?

Deliciously ironic.


That and one guy decloaking with a neut would kill off both ships before he could do anything. Even if they only got one before the rats/torp got him, the other ship would die on the next volley.

He also didn't gimp his tank with the pvp mods that he thinks everyone should be fitting.

I'll have to wait for him to report the tests from the TQ build, but the whole thing seems unlikely.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#793 - 2012-10-02 12:20:54 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Anyone going to comment on the fact that he swapped out ALL of the domi's turrets and only had 1 drone amp in his setup for it to work?

I'm already skilling towards a similar setup for my mision runner team, which will take a while - thanks for having to change 2 years worth of skill plans. I'm opimistic my setup will be a bit less gimped, though ;).


It's liek incursions and wormholes IMO. CCP built them to be more "engaging pve", but it didn' take EVe players long (ie it took mere hours lol) to figure out.

This change seems like it would be about the same. I don' t use drones in missions and anomalies because they catch aggro of new spawns and die, that gets expensive, but (and i'll test this on duality when it's available) perhaps in the winter i'll just be able to swap out my tracking computer for a target painter and keep aggro off drones.....which turns this change into a BUFF for me lol.


Quote:

@FoxFour: If i had a bit more feedback on your general GOALS like I asked for before (a'la ECM generates x thread, RR generates y threat, DPS generates z thread - doesn't have to be 100% accurate numbers, but a general idea would be good) i might be able to come up with something else before I have to remap - which is not THAT far off.

Looks like my main will still have to jump on the Tengu bandwaggon for the odd solo mission/plex instead of the drone Proteus I had considered for a while :(


I'd like to know the general "formula" too, though I imagine we'll find out through testing. I'd also like to know the chances of aggro from a ship type going "up" or "down".

What I mean is this: In Forsaken hubs where there are only cruisers and battleships (and here I'm using, say, 2 battleships of my own to rat), will the cruisers be more likely to go after my drones (down) or after my 2 battleships (up), or will the chances of them switching to my drones.

And since the new AI hates Ewar, how will they treat EWAR drones?

Lots of stuff we'll figure out on duality I guess, but i think anyone who thinks this change is going to change player behavior is probably wrong.

I predict perma running afk ECM Bursting Domis in missions :) .
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
#794 - 2012-10-02 12:43:41 UTC
Easy solution: Stay ATK (Attached To Keyboard). Ya know, the way the designers intended the game to be played... or whatever.

♪ They'll always be bloodclaws to me ♫
Rengerel en Distel
#795 - 2012-10-02 13:10:00 UTC
Lfod Shi wrote:
Easy solution: Stay ATK (Attached To Keyboard). Ya know, the way the designers intended the game to be played... or whatever.


You know this change doesn't actually hinder the afk boats at all, right? If you gain aggro remote repping a drone, the boat keeps the aggro. If you don't, but remote repper drones don't get aggro, they rep one drone with the ship, 2 with other drones, and have 3 dps sentries to take down the mission instead of 5. They're afk anyways, a slightly lower isk/hour isn't going to kill them.

What the change does, is have a ripple down effect that can't really be known until we can test it. As great as it is to test the very high end PVE content, every mission needs to be tested. Low SP characters need to test it, instead of testing with a max skilled player. Perhaps with perfect drone skills, you do have time to pull your heavy drones back, but how many players running level 3s in a myrm have perfect drone skills? How about the guy doing level 1s or 2s that count on the drones to kill stuff because his hybrid guns can't hit anything?

On the other hand, if you just solo the missions in anything but a drone boat, you don't notice any changes at all. So a giant sweeping NPC AI change effects only drone boats and fleets. It makes a lot of drone boats and fleets less viable, which as a design goal seems a little odd. Even the most hardcore PVPer needs PVE content to be run either to directly supply him with isk, or indirectly from the market.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
#796 - 2012-10-02 13:30:02 UTC
It's likely that I don't know what I'm talking about. I know nothing about afk playing, scept when I go to get a cup of coffee while mining. My theory is this whole thing is about making solo afk droning tougher since I remember reading that Eve isn't intended as an afk game when I first signed on.

Either way, I'm looking forward to smarter rats.

♪ They'll always be bloodclaws to me ♫
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#797 - 2012-10-02 13:38:03 UTC
like many ppl said before, this will just made the drone boats more useless.

it is already not used as pvp boat in low, because gates guns love drone too much, rendering the drone boats useless.

now, they will also be useless as pve boat (and NO you do not have time to recall 5 heavies in a LVL 4 b4 they die in 90% of the case).

only place to see myrmidons / dominix / ishtar will soon be nullsec in pvp, where they are already not that much used.

after that, all you shall do is to refund SP on drones to everyone, and remove drone boats from game except cap / supercap, because they will be the only droneboats able to be used

also +1000 for the plex issue that will follow, being able to manage the aggro is the main concern in those, removing this will close the door for the less experimented pilots keeping them running lvl 3 for a big time.

and my guess is that most of them will probably found it boring and leave eve after that
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#798 - 2012-10-02 13:48:47 UTC
Lfod Shi wrote:
It's likely that I don't know what I'm talking about. I know nothing about afk playing, scept when I go to get a cup of coffee while mining. My theory is this whole thing is about making solo afk droning tougher since I remember reading that Eve isn't intended as an afk game when I first signed on.

Either way, I'm looking forward to smarter rats.


don't get it wrong, but afk player will still find a way to afk run their sites.

maybe wih a different setup or something, but they'll still be present.

the answer imao to this is a real kick in their nuts, meaning
1- first time, advert
2- 2nd time get them negative wallet and / or temp account ban
3- definitve accout banning

including incoming retaliation mechanism in the above process at step 2 could be part of it, like tagging him or something so he can be engaged free by anyone for a set period of time.

i mean, many players are geting their ship made useless because of the behaviour of some, and this is not really fair tbh.

i personnaly don't care because i don't make my money from pve, in fact i don't need or enjoy PVE anymore,but i think about the new players who, like me at starting, will find the drone boat concept appealing (this is what made me go throught the first month, seeing my vexor then myrm getting more awsome everyday as my drones skills were improving).

don't break the drone boats more than they already are!!
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#799 - 2012-10-02 13:53:30 UTC
Lfod Shi wrote:
It's likely that I don't know what I'm talking about. I know nothing about afk playing, scept when I go to get a cup of coffee while mining. My theory is this whole thing is about making solo afk droning tougher since I remember reading that Eve isn't intended as an afk game when I first signed on.


Yes, that's you theory. It is also one of the reasons brought up by FoxFour as an intended consequence of the change.

Unfortunately reality interfered and currently it looks like the opposite is the case and AFK runners will be the ones LEAST affected by this change.

Quote:

Either way, I'm looking forward to smarter rats.


Then keep looking forward. The best they will be able to come up with is an - either ultimately predictable or completely random - target switching algorithm.

None of those two options is smart.


You know what's smart? Avoiding/fleeing from battles you cannot win.
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
#800 - 2012-10-02 14:01:33 UTC
I see. It's a difference that I don't get cause drone boats never appealed to me. I like being outnumbered and outclassed in PvE. I'm looking forward to seeing if I can survive lvl3 missions solo in the new Caldari destroyer.

Different gameplay entirely and one of the reasons I do love this damn game.

♪ They'll always be bloodclaws to me ♫