Intergalactic Summit

It's barely possible for anyone of either the Empire or the Kingdom to log into any of the public fora, these days, without this discussion or a variant of it springing up. Your version, in particular, is interesting because I fail to see who you supposed to be talking to.

It clearly isn't anyone from the Kingdom or the Empire. To us, Slavery is a state solely excused by the belief that if you place one of the Fallen into a situation where they are exposed to Discipline and Spiritual Instruction then the result is a chance at the saving of their soul. Everything else is explained by that belief and the need to make it work in real life situations.

It also doesn't appear to be anyone from outside of the Kingdom or the Empire. If you don't share that one belief that excuses Slavery then it is unlikely that any other ethical argument will make sense to you. There are, admittedly, plenty of unethical beliefs that excuse Slavery, but that is a different discussion based on a whole different set of arguments.

To keep this discussion blessedly concise, I'll give you some enlightenment. There are only two methods by which I see an outside agency being capable of ending Slavery as a legitimised institution within the Empire and Kingdom.

Firstly, you embark upon and successfully conclude a campaign of wholesale conquest and then follow it with an occupation focused on the total eradication of the Amarrian Faith. I can hear the salivating and the rubbing of hands already, but such measures are unlikely to be successful unless you can enlist all three of the other Empires and keep them onboard for the duration. I see that as highly unlikely at best. The Caldari are currently our Allies and whilst the Federation is staunchly opposed to many of the institutions of Amarrian culture and government, I doubt they share the kind of knee-jerk hatred of the people themselves that would be necessary.

Secondly, you must attack the doctrinal support that the Amarrian Faith provides for the legitimised institution of Slavery. Do that and I'm sure that popular support would crumble. Without the Mandate of God, Slavery becomes an inefficient economic model that benefits very few citizens of either Empire or Kingdom.

Think about it, lets assume you manage to "reclaim" the majority of Matar, or have already done so with a very large population, wouldn't it stand to reason that Matar is now "cleansed" and in reality your allies are actually the heathen scum that you should be focusing on?

Matar could already be your shining paragon with a realisation that Caldari is the next unclean sector that needs your divine attention.

For the sake of argument, I'd say you have done your work, Matar is cleansed, now inform your Kingdom that your god now directs you to Caldari space to continue your hard work. I think Jita would be a good place to start.

I suppose you would prefer that I lock them up without any chance of seeing freedom.

What your narrow mind will likely never understand is that I did not free them for 'public accolade', and I did not do it 'on a whim'. In fact, the only person I see making the proverbial 'big stink' about my announcement is you. Thank you, by the way -- your lovely little rant brought so many readers to my previous message.

I find it rather telling that you accuse us of seeking to destroy the Matari faith in one breath, and then immediately turn about and advocate the dismantling of our faith in the next. Has your anger really blinded you so completely that you would perpetrate the very 'evil act' that you fight so hard to prevent?

There's a word for that: psychopathy.

I would say that our way of slavery is unique yes. But slavery itself is not limited to Amarr space. We Amarr for example don't eat our slaves like the Blood Raiders, or prostitute them like several pirate factions. Capsuleers of all races seem to keep slaves as collecters items as well. How slaves are treated in the Kingdom and in the Empire, which is what you seem to be most interested in, differs greatly between the Holders that own them.

And still those 'faithful' skirt around the very issue I have raised.

No culture, other than the Amarrian and Nation 'cultures' Directly espouse the complete destruction of every other culture in the cluster.

"It clearly isn't anyone from the Kingdom or the Empire. To us, Slavery is a state solely excused by the belief that if you place one of the Fallen into a situation where they are exposed to Discipline and Spiritual Instruction then the result is a chance at the saving of their soul. Everything else is explained by that belief and the need to make it work in real life situations."

before you Amarrians came to Matar we had discipline, and to this day we still do, We also had our own, perfectly valid, spiritual beliefs, and the Elders and Shamen who were perfectly capable of offerring guidance within those beliefs.

Your people have NO RIGHT to state that our ways are wrong, no right to chain us and force us to follow your ways.
Such destruction of our culture is abhorrent to any civilised people, yet you continue the practice.

Yes Meiyi, everything your people do IS explained by their beliefs, and that is why we fight you.

only two cultures in the whole cluster do as you claim is your right and duty.
Amarr and Nation.

Both are wrong.
Both are barbaric.

-Dilaro

Thanks for the information; I think I've been paying for tests that clearly give me a false sense of security. Maybe I am a psychopath, I guess the adage "Ignorance is bliss" applies here. I'll continue to spout my rhetoric, but can be mindful that I'm probably not completely compos mentis.

You are a holder, within the same system that treats slaves in an abhorrent and inhuman manner. (yes, i do mean inhuman, not inhumane). As part of that system, and through your refusal to even challenge the methods used by others, you treat slaves with contempt.

The argument that you do not treat your own property with such disdain quite frankly holds no water. you treat them as slaves, slaves are property. property is not human. You wonder why we refuse to treat you as a human?

As for your statement regarding the hereditary nature of slavery and the destruction of other faiths and cultures. That is not an 'individual holder' issue, it is implicit within the current amarian culture of slaveholding.

I do not believe that slaveholders, no matter who they are, should be treated as humans by the rest of the cluster. They do not treat their 'property' as humans, and as the old saying goes, you should treat others as you expect to be treated.

however, if you truly believe you treat your slaves well, here is an idea.
seal yourself in a warehouse with them, alone. remove their chains and supply any who are infected with vitoxin with a lifetimes supply of vitoc. Then prostrate yourself naked on the floor before them as ask that they treat you as they believe you deserve.
I sincerely doubt you would ever return to the capsule, even if they left you alive.

Tiberious.
I knew someone would mention the Federation in this respect, and honestly, i expected that it would be you.
The federation has been helping Matari society rebuild for a long time now. Yes, some of our leaders have attempted to form a government based upon the federate model, but can you truly say you do not understand why. The Federation has the most robust economy in the cluster by far and money equates to power, especially on that scale.

As for their 'gentle absorbtion' The federation do not destroy faiths that are not Gallentean, they have not destroyed the Jin-Mei caste system, and they have not destroyed the Matari. Do they oppose some aspects of the Caldari culture? Yes. Do they oppose Nation and Amarr? Certainly. Would you honestly expect them not to?

As for your statements regarding why Nation fights, if the series of abductions at the dawn of Nation's resugence had not happened perhaps you would have been partially believable, as things stand, i have a hard time not laughing.
Nation was defeated the first time because of it's own inhuman treatment of it's populace, The implantation and mutilation of tens of thousands of those who were sucked in by Kuvakei's apparent Utopian dream.
Then it returned, and began to abduct millions, using them in the same twisted scheme as before.

Nation, and all those who follow it, lost the right to be listened to as equals a long time ago.

Since you both seem to have missed it again. I'll make it even more simple.

Amarr seeks to take away the beliefs and culture of everyone who is not of amarr 'because god told them to'
Nation seeks to take away the individual freedoms of everyone who is not of nation 'because kuvakei told them to'

The federation simply state that everyone has the inaliable right to freedom and self determination. and 'Gently persuade' those who will listen that such freedoms are right.

Why do you choose to remain blind to the lie your leaders have placed before you? Reasoned thought is all it takes to see through such screens to the rotten core that lies beneath.

Time to wait for the next round of weak rebuttals I suppose.

Can you not see the contradiction in what you're saying? You have no interest in dismantling our faith, yet you suggest that we deny the validity of Scripture by not taking slaves.

As for the 'inhuman' remarks, Captain Thagriin, this territory has been covered over the Summit link -- you stand to alienate the IGS as well, if you continue in this fashion.

Astroyka, come back to us in a thousand years with countless other prophecies from multiple sources and the largest following in the Cluster of any organised religion. Might be compelled to take Saint Astroyka seriously then.

Captain Thagriin, if I followed your instructions I doubt I would have ANY problems making it back to the capsule. My housekeeper and research assistant are rather delicate little things and I doubt they've been exposed to much violence in their lives. I'm toughened from a childhood of farmwork and warehousing chores. I'm pretty sure I could take them AND the two young boys who are my domestic help.

Would killing them with my bare hands REALLY change your mind?
(Here's a hint, I wouldn't do it even if it would. I cherish the chance that one day I'll be able to free them and start them and their children on the path to a life of their own.)

On the subject of Culture you are wholly incorrect, whilst there has been some cultural cross-over between the Khanid and the Amarr, the Church has never been particularly interested in changing our family traditions, our language or anything else. Just our Faith. I can honestly say that the same applied to the Ni-Kunni. It would probably have applied to the Udorians, except that their culture involved subjugating and conquering both the Khanid and the Amarr so, you know, steps had to be taken. I'm not sure that the Ealur even HAD a culture beyond subsistence survival, but I could be wrong.

Now, if you REALLY want a movement that is desirous of the complete destruction of the Culture of others, you'd have to turn to the Gallente. Culture IS the Gallente religion, from what I've seen, and anyone is welcome to join their Church, provided they're willing to toe the party line. Just try establishing an Anti-Democracy society in the Federation, if you don't believe me. I'm sure that Roden's Eagles will be along to 'have a word'.

Again. Calling Slavery immoral is not going to lead to the end of it. Because the Kingdom and the Empire think that it is made moral by God's Will. Insulting the humanity of those who are convinced that they are acting according to the Will of God is not going to change their hearts, it is simply going to confirm them in their beliefs.

Every atrocity, every insult and every blow that is struck in revenge for Slavery merely convinces the Faithful that it is not only justified but vital for the salvation of the people who act that way. I think you need a new strategy if you want to do anything more than continue the cycle of pain.

How am I to know that you're not testing my Faith, oh prophet?

Anyway, no - it's not convenient for me. It's very inconvenient for me, actually. I don't make my money blowing up anyone other than Pirates and the occaisional mineral-rich rock. The end of the Faction War. The end of Slavery. The beginning of a new detente with the Federation and the Republic - all these things would PROFIT me financially.

I'm a capsuleer, do you think I can't afford to pay the five Slaves in my household a living wage? Especially since one of them is a newborn babe and therefore doesn't draw a salary?

As for the 'Pot/Kettle' reference. We were referring to the destruction of culture and I was just pointing out that destruction of culture is not a requirement of conversion to the Faith. It is, however, a requirement of conversion to the Gallente Faith.