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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#3861 - 2012-10-01 20:53:42 UTC
awe i was looking forward to Tracking computers effecting missiles, i was gonna work on a sniper/short range missile combo.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#3862 - 2012-10-01 20:54:45 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
awe i was looking forward to Tracking computers effecting missiles, i was gonna work on a sniper/short range missile combo.


unfortunately eve is full of disappointments Sad

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3863 - 2012-10-01 21:00:57 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Changes are underlined in the OP, and are:
We're dropping the Tracking mod and disruptor changes to missiles from this release. We're adjusting the heavy missile change to only have a 10% damage nerf but also include a 12% explosion radius nerf.


I'm a little disappointed by this, since it means that missile boats will still be de facto immune to one of the types of ewar. May I ask what the reason for reversing the TD changes was?


Diversity is good?
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#3864 - 2012-10-01 21:01:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
I am not trolling.
Every weapon in eve has it's special purpose so do missiles, missiles can be:
1. Smartbombed
2. Defended with defenders
3. Take a long time to get to target

Turrets do:
1. Instant damage (frigate dies in less than a second)
2. Can't be destroyed in space
3. No delay to target after activation

1. So take tengu for example and try to kill an npc frigate that's 50km away from you, you'll have hard time even hitting it.
2. Take vargur with a good fit and you'll instakill an npc frigate at 50km in less than a second.

as you see turrets are far more advanced then missiles even now before the nerf.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#3865 - 2012-10-01 21:04:12 UTC
Also why do rockets have such a low explosion radius 20 is less than guns have and thats before modification granted rage has 34 but when thats modified it will be peanuts maybe a rethink is in order here me thinks

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3866 - 2012-10-01 21:05:20 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
so by my calculations Rage HAM's will be able to do something in the region of 15km at lv5 skills thats before any mods/rigs buff them now to me that seems excessive for a supposed short range high damage ammo type even conflag can't reach that far and lasers usually have the best range its clearly way too much as the fact that torps have the same range tells you this.

Surely 9km is more reasonable considering all the guns are well into falloff at this point
Which by extension means javelin is also too far ranged.


Why do you want everything to be the same??

How many times are you going to post in this thread in an attempt to nerf missiles to an even greater extent? Lemme guess - you don't use missiles?

15km Rage HAMs seems excessive to you? Roll
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#3867 - 2012-10-01 21:08:37 UTC
Spc One wrote:
I am not trolling.
Every weapon in eve has it's special purpose so do missiles, missiles can be:
1. Smartbombed
2. Defended with defenders
3. Take a long time to get to target

Turrets do:
1. Instant damage (frigate dies in less than a second)
2. Can't be destroyed in space
3. No delay to target after activation

1. So take tengu for example and try to kill an npc frigate that's 50km away from you, you'll have hard time even hitting it.
2. Take vargur with a good fit and you'll instakill an npc frigate at 50km in less than a second.

as you see turrets are far more advanced then missiles even now before the nerf.


now that's a more reasoned response but my point is still very much valid as missiles get compensated in various ways as a result but doesn't mean they shouldn't be compared and judged closely to what turrets do and realistically missiles dont get attacked often as defenders suck and smart-bombs are pretty poor and unused in most circumstances

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#3868 - 2012-10-01 21:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Nikolai Dostoyevski wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
so by my calculations Rage HAM's will be able to do something in the region of 15km at lv5 skills thats before any mods/rigs buff them now to me that seems excessive for a supposed short range high damage ammo type even conflag can't reach that far and lasers usually have the best range its clearly way too much as the fact that torps have the same range tells you this.

Surely 9km is more reasonable considering all the guns are well into falloff at this point
Which by extension means javelin is also too far ranged.


Why do you want everything to be the same??

How many times are you going to post in this thread in an attempt to nerf missiles to an even greater extent? Lemme guess - you don't use missiles?

15km Rage HAMs seems excessive to you? Roll


i've used missiles extensively being caldari and all used drakes/hawks etc.
i now use gunships and can tell you having been on both sides just how much an advantage missiles have atm.

Why do you want everything to be the same??
no. who does this is a classic trolling question you cant win turrets aren't all the same blasters to projectiles very different things do pay attention.
you try and hit a ship at 15km with anything other than HAMS using void/hail/conflag you will fail miserably

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3869 - 2012-10-01 21:22:04 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
void/hail/conflag

See, this is your problem.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Oleszka
Syntropia Of Avatara
#3870 - 2012-10-01 21:24:47 UTC
In my opinion, the changes are made in the wrong way. Why did you change the properties of missiles? So many player are already familiar whit it.
Why did you not change the amount of materials for missiles and make them more expensive if they are so good???

And BTW missiles should be more expensive than other ammunition because you shooting a drone with a explsoive charge and no laser or projectile....

... so the conclusion is, make the missiles stronger and more expensive and the launcher cheaper

the way you choose, to make the missiles more similar to turrets in the way of using it, is not correct, because this weapons are not similar!

Make the game more complex and not world of warcraft.

**EvE-Movie, take a look and enjoy it **PushMe
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3871 - 2012-10-01 21:25:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Updated stats

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 26 (previously 29)
Alpha: 213 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3
Explosion radius: 140 (previously 125)

The explosion radius change turns out to be roughly a 12% dps decrease against targets with a signature radius of 125 or lower (which is non-MWDing armor tanked T1 and T2 but not T3 cruisers). A target painter negates this.

The question is if this will be enough to curb the HML Drake proliferation. I would not be surprised if HML Drakes continued to be very popular in their bracket after this set of changes. What the numbers above don't reveal is the massive tank that a Drake can field (due to low fitting requirements of HMLs). The loss in HML range is also less severe than it appears since missile acceleration is improved at the same time. The increase in missile speed is a straight buff.

So yes, HML Drakes will be weaker overall and might have to fit a missile speed rig but I still don't see any competitors in their price class that offers a similarly good combination of dps, hitpoints and range.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#3872 - 2012-10-01 21:26:42 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Spc One wrote:
I am not trolling.
Every weapon in eve has it's special purpose so do missiles, missiles can be:
1. Smartbombed
2. Defended with defenders
3. Take a long time to get to target

Turrets do:
1. Instant damage (frigate dies in less than a second)
2. Can't be destroyed in space
3. No delay to target after activation

1. So take tengu for example and try to kill an npc frigate that's 50km away from you, you'll have hard time even hitting it.
2. Take vargur with a good fit and you'll instakill an npc frigate at 50km in less than a second.

as you see turrets are far more advanced then missiles even now before the nerf.


now that's a more reasoned response but my point is still very much valid as missiles get compensated in various ways as a result but doesn't mean they shouldn't be compared and judged closely to what turrets do and realistically missiles dont get attacked often as defenders suck and smart-bombs are pretty poor and unused in most circumstances

If you're looking at missions and complexes, EVERY npc has defenders on it, even dominx, nightmare, machariel .. etc..
Those ships don't have any launcher hardpoints but NPC's still use them, so defender missiles are heavy used by NPC's.
Let's Party
Guitar Players of EVE
#3873 - 2012-10-01 21:28:10 UTC
Drake needs a buff, not a nerf.
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#3874 - 2012-10-01 21:28:44 UTC
I disapprove of the new changes.
Nothing has been fixed, game play has not been diversify, HMs are still better than all long range weapons, all other missiles that would have been mostly fixed the the TC/TE changes (ie, cruise,torps,HAMs) are still going to be under used and under performing. TD are still practically useless in small gang/ solo work. The TE/TC change would have fixed the HM nerf. I leave disappointed.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#3875 - 2012-10-01 21:30:52 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Updated stats

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 26 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3
Explosion radius: 140 (previously 125)

The explosion radius change turns out to be roughly a 12% dps decrease against targets with a signature radius of 125 or lower (which is non-MWDing armor tanked T1 and T2 but not T3 cruisers). A target painter negates this.

The question is if this will be enough to curb the HML Drake proliferation. I would not be surprised if HML Drakes continued to be very popular in their bracket after this set of changes. What the numbers above don't reveal is the massive tank that a Drake can field. The loss in HML range is also less severe than it appears since missile acceleration is improved at the same time.



Exactly and this explosion radius is easily countered with skills etc.
Especially when you consider most pvp ships are using mwds it ends up not mattering very often its range is still too good for its damage ratio.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3876 - 2012-10-01 21:35:24 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Updated stats

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 26 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3
Explosion radius: 140 (previously 125)

The explosion radius change turns out to be roughly a 12% dps decrease against targets with a signature radius of 125 or lower (which is non-MWDing armor tanked T1 and T2 but not T3 cruisers). A target painter negates this.

The question is if this will be enough to curb the HML Drake proliferation. I would not be surprised if HML Drakes continued to be very popular in their bracket after this set of changes. What the numbers above don't reveal is the massive tank that a Drake can field. The loss in HML range is also less severe than it appears since missile acceleration is improved at the same time.



Exactly and this explosion radius is easily countered with skills etc.
Especially when you consider most pvp ships are using mwds it ends up not mattering very often its range is still too good for its damage ratio.


You mean countered by a booster loki? 130m is right around what an AB/shield Tengu sits at without links
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3877 - 2012-10-01 21:37:56 UTC
Onictus wrote:

You mean countered by a booster loki? 130m is right around what an AB/shield Tengu sits at without links


Yes, thanks for mentioning that. I was too lazy to factor in links. Anyway, at the fleet level combat we can expect that the Drake fleet will have sufficient target painter support to make this mostly irrelevant.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3878 - 2012-10-01 21:45:52 UTC
just wanted to throw in here that with the new changes, HAMs you'll probably get to ~75m explosion radius which will DESTROY frigs.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3879 - 2012-10-01 21:50:00 UTC
Disapointing...

And the worse is all these call for nerfing ewar : yes please, nerf armor tank even more !! Like, can you remove a med slot when you fit a plate or armor repair may be ? Shield tank cannot fit ewar, so make it completely useless please. And it's too difficult with ewar BTW, I cannot use a ful tank/dps fit to counter this, it's obviously OP.

Question : what is the point of ewar if only specialized ship can use it ? Cosmetic ? It's not like if then everyone won't cry to nerf the specialized boats, like the falcon.

People cry about the falcon because it's the only effective EWAR ship. If other ewar ship are buffed, then people will cry too. The problem is that people cry because they have to adapt their fit for unexpected but not certain threat. They want to be king in their full gank/tank ship and don't want any counter. They are childish.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#3880 - 2012-10-01 21:50:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Daniel Plain wrote:
just wanted to throw in here that with the new changes, HAMs you'll probably get to ~75m explosion radius which will DESTROY frigs.

Not really, battlecuisers and cruisers are slow and 15km range on hams means frigate could just run out of 15km range and frigate survives.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:


People cry about the falcon because it's the only effective EWAR ship. I.

You have to know that falcon has no tank, only ewar.