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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#3741 - 2012-10-01 17:47:19 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Take 2 on the missile changes is much more reasonable since you gave Furies an acutal use now.

But that said, it's actually a huge buff to HML Drakes that go to 0 on fleets with their massive EHP and the now much more massive damage from Fury.

You really need to remove the Resist bonus from the Drake this patch or else this will be a short term disaster. with a ~550 DPS 35km range Fury Drake.

Other than that, I really like take 2 changes due to the tradeoff of long range damage for more close range damage.

Embrace the HAM Drake.

HAM PG reduction, moving some of the HM DPS nerf into the explosion radius, all good things.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#3742 - 2012-10-01 17:48:25 UTC
so what reason have you kept out the TE's TC's seems a bit odd/unnecessary?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#3743 - 2012-10-01 17:48:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also the 35% dmg to rage is an increase of how much from what they are now? 35% or what?


35% above T1 missiles post-patch. I'll see about getting a public version of a spreadsheet with the numbers although those aren't all that casually readable either.

Rage HAMs are getting a range nerf compared to their current values.



OK, so Revised, that's a 500 dps drake with 140k ehp at 30km ... better or comparable to most LR BS fits with CR ammo.
Eckyy
United Caldari Navy
United Caldari Space Command.
#3744 - 2012-10-01 17:48:45 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey again everyone. I've updated the OP with the version 2.0 of these proposals after the discussion in this thread, with the CSM and with our whole team here.

The main goal of the revisions is to ensure that we don't have too many balls in the air at once affecting the same modules. We're delaying the tracking mod and tracking disruptor changes until the first release settles and since those changes would have been a general buff to all missiles we're adjusting the severity of the HM nerf and making direct changes to the previously "unguided" missiles to compensate.

Changes are underlined in the OP, and are:
We're dropping the Tracking mod and disruptor changes to missiles from this release. We're adjusting the heavy missile change to only have a 10% damage nerf but also include a 12% explosion radius nerf. The velocity of heavy missiles is also being increased by a larger amount, with flight time adjusting to keep the overall range change the same while ensuring higher applied damage in the real world and less wasted volleys. As well we are looking at making the Guided Missile Precision skill affect everything and dropping HAM PG requirements by 10% (Still a little bit higher than heavy missiles but closer).

I have also included some actual details in the T2 missile change section.

Finally Ytterbium has already announced some adjustments to light missile fittings to help balance the new destroyers, expect a slight decrease to the new Kestrel fittings to compensate.


That sounds like a very conservative, agreeable change. If it still needs fixing after you finish balancing the ships you can come back to it.

Bravo.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#3745 - 2012-10-01 17:49:21 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
so what reason have you kept out the TE's TC's seems a bit odd/unnecessary?


has more to do with the EWAR side I think
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3746 - 2012-10-01 17:49:40 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Take 2 on the missile changes is much more reasonable since you gave Furies an acutal use now.

But that said, it's actually a huge buff to HML Drakes that go to 0 on fleets with their massive EHP and the now much more massive damage from Fury.

You really need to remove the Resist bonus from the Drake this patch or else this will be a short term disaster. with a ~550 DPS 35km range Fury Drake.

Other than that, I really like take 2 changes due to the tradeoff of long range damage for more close range damage.


Fury HMLs will do less damage post-patch than they do now. The +35% number is compared to post-patch T1 missiles.

Currently before bonuses Fury Heavy Missiles do 192 damage, post patch they'll do 182.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
OlRotGut
#3747 - 2012-10-01 17:49:44 UTC
Very happy with the new changes, and I like the fact that missiles move faster. Also love the guided missile projection skill affecting all missiles now. That will make that skill so much more viable.

HAMs actually may be used quite often now.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#3748 - 2012-10-01 17:51:33 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also the 35% dmg to rage is an increase of how much from what they are now? 35% or what?


35% above T1 missiles post-patch. I'll see about getting a public version of a spreadsheet with the numbers although those aren't all that casually readable either.

Rage HAMs are getting a range nerf compared to their current values.


Can Missiles Please get either damage specific resistance or more structure to make firewalling less easy to remove most damage.

That's one thing that needs to be fixed... it's just way to easy in large fleet fights.

It's also a ratting issue when sometimes up to 50% of your dps is lost to rat Defenders.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3749 - 2012-10-01 17:52:50 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also the 35% dmg to rage is an increase of how much from what they are now? 35% or what?


35% above T1 missiles post-patch. I'll see about getting a public version of a spreadsheet with the numbers although those aren't all that casually readable either.

Rage HAMs are getting a range nerf compared to their current values.


Can Missiles Please get either damage specific resistance or more structure to make firewalling less easy to remove most damage.


The velocity buff already makes firewalls a little less powerful, I wouldn't want to nerf them further at this time considering how difficult a really good firewall is to pull off today.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Eckyy
United Caldari Navy
United Caldari Space Command.
#3750 - 2012-10-01 17:53:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Eckyy
My gut tells me HAMs (on a Drake/Caracal anyway) might be a bit over the top now, but I'm sure you guys have run the numbers and know better than my gut.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#3751 - 2012-10-01 17:54:04 UTC
still kind of feels like you've given into all the drake obsessed people trying to save their OP ship instead of sticking to your guns and for christ sake surely all short range weapon systems should use less pg/cpu than their long range counterparts.
And should be fighting inside web range like all the guns do.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#3752 - 2012-10-01 17:54:47 UTC
Best thing to do is remove all rockets and missiles from game.
This way everything would be balanced.

Cool

If rockets, missiles were good for 9 years now, why are you changing them i don't see the logic in there. So keep missiles as they are right now, or remove them completely from game.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#3753 - 2012-10-01 17:55:18 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also the 35% dmg to rage is an increase of how much from what they are now? 35% or what?


35% above T1 missiles post-patch. I'll see about getting a public version of a spreadsheet with the numbers although those aren't all that casually readable either.

Rage HAMs are getting a range nerf compared to their current values.


Can Missiles Please get either damage specific resistance or more structure to make firewalling less easy to remove most damage.


The velocity buff already makes firewalls a little less powerful, I wouldn't want to nerf them further at this time considering how difficult a really good firewall is to pull off today.



You don't apparently know how to firewall then.

6 - 8 smartbombs means a smartbomb cycling every 1 second or less

With 12km diameter, the chance of a missile making it through the gap even with 15,000 m/s speed is slim to none. On a non velocity boosted ship, it's even more severe.

And saying a "little less powerful" when a Firewall is about 90-95% effective already, is not a promising statement.

What other fleet doctrine takes that kind of hit?

Just a natural Resistance of 90% on one damage type would make it much harder to firewall.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#3754 - 2012-10-01 17:58:26 UTC
GMP applying to unguided missiles is a really massive buff - I'd argue that at the very least, rockets really don't need it and are very strong as is. Might be worth increasing their base explosion radius by 20-25% to compensate.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3755 - 2012-10-01 17:59:01 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
Quote:
Tech Two Missiles
-Remove ship penalties from tech two missiles (ship velocity and signature radius)
-Precision: Increase bonuses to explosion velocity to +20%, increase damage to match T1 missiles


Quote:
-Fury: Increase damage bonus to +35%, reduce flight time to 50% of T1

Is this a nerf to fury range by 50%, or did I miss something and/or did you miss something?


Quote:
unify penalties to explosion radius (+72%) and velocity (-16%) across the sizes
-Rage: Increase damage bonus to +35%, Unify flight time to match T1, unify velocity penalty (-16.7%), unify penalty to explosion velocity (-14%), increase penalty to explosion radius (+72%)


What exactly do you mean unify flight time, unify velocity and the rest of the unify?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3756 - 2012-10-01 18:01:00 UTC
Whenever I listed a change as unifying it means that the different sizes of missiles had slightly different penalties or bonuses in that stat compared to their T1 counterparts.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#3757 - 2012-10-01 18:04:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Whenever I listed a change as unifying it means that the different sizes of missiles had slightly different penalties or bonuses in that stat compared to their T1 counterparts.


If Furies got a damage reduction too and I read that wrong, Then I'm back to hating 2.0 changes as well. Now there is still an un-needed damage reduction w/o any tradeoff for the closer range damage application and it still does not address the 2 ships that are causing all the problems while nerfing everything else.

Again, nobody has said yet that HMLs needed a damage reduction, only a range reduction. Either give furies a use at close range to trade off for the longer range damage reduction, or remove the reduction all together...


and yeah, firewalls.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#3758 - 2012-10-01 18:04:48 UTC
so no TD's affecting missiles then despite it being promised at fanfest for summer how long will we have to wait for my curse to be effective against missiles?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3759 - 2012-10-01 18:06:52 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
Also, does this essentially make guided missiles longer range short range weapons now.

I mean, I'm a little lost on this.

There's no buff to precision range, but a massive nerf to fury range putting it less than precision, which means that guided missiles will be doing less that 65km with both precision and fury.

Or again, did I miss something?

Edit....

I take that back, with cruise missiles @ all skills lvl 5 it would be less than about 80km.

However, I didn't see a nerf to t1 and navy missile ranges, so can you please explain this?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#3760 - 2012-10-01 18:09:08 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Also, does this essentially make guided missiles longer range short range weapons now.

I mean, I'm a little lost on this.

There's no buff to precision range, but a massive nerf to fury range putting it less than precision, which means that guided missiles will be doing less that 65km with both precision and fury.

Or again, did I miss something?


please make us a pretty picture that shows the changes maybe with different colours and lines going up and down please :P

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using