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Flexibility of the post-boost Caracal
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Denuo Secus
#1 - 2012-10-01 09:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Hi,

seeing the Caracal changes I think it could become a very nice t1 cruiser. Especially with the proposed TE/TC changes for missiles. But I'm not sure how flexible the new Caracal will be. I see it from a solo-PvP perspective. Some flexibility is nice to have here: a cruiser viable against targets of the same size AND frig sized targets. I do not look for an almighty i-win button. Ofc there will be targets the new Caracal cannot win against. But other cruisers offer still some flexibility (Rupture, Vexor, Arbi). How could the new Caracal in comparison end up?

A tanked HAM version should be very capable against other cruisers. Something the current Caracal isn't. But how will this fit perform against frigs? With frigs I mean the most dangerous version for a solo-PvPer: close range, scram frigs which hold you down until the cavalry arrives. Getting rid of this tacklers fast is important.

Dual web would help a lot to archieve this. But unlike the Drake the Caracal doesn't have a shield resistence bonus. Also less slots ofc. So fitting dual web would make the Caracal a lot weaker against other cruisers. I'm not sure how the TE/TC changes will help here. With 4 low slots there is place for 2 TEs without gimping the Caracals tank.

And ofc the Caracal could be fitted with rapid light launchers. This would make it to an anti-frig monster...but again: how viable would it against equally sized targets then? T2 high damage missiles will get a boost...maybe enough to fight other cruisers solo?

I didn't mention HMs since I think they will be reserved for niche roles of the Caracal. This isn't a bad thing imo. The Caracal can still project damage at ranges like no other t1 cruiser.

Any thoughts? I know this is a bit guessing atm. But someone with more experience with HAMs could try an estimation perhaps? Blink
Belthazor4011
Battle BV Redux
#2 - 2012-10-01 10:24:09 UTC
Currently using HAMs against frigs is ******** lol

Not sure due to the TE/TC changes and how well they will work. With 4 lows it should be able to fit a couple.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-10-01 17:05:57 UTC
Belthazor4011 wrote:
Currently using HAMs against frigs is ******** lol

Not sure due to the TE/TC changes and how well they will work. With 4 lows it should be able to fit a couple.



but wont ppl just try cramming 4x bcs in there, and then tell you your doing it wrong for not ?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#4 - 2012-10-01 17:16:15 UTC
It's hard to know which way I'll go until the TE/TC changes themselves are announced, but chances are I'm going to try out both the AML and HAM Caracals. The interesting thing about the HAM Caracal is that it'll be able to apply good damage at really really long range for a cruiser. I'm really curious how well it's going to apply damage to frigs, or if it'll even be able to hit kiting frigs.

Not that it'll make much of a difference when compared to the Tier 3 BCs that I have flown in the past. Frigs are basically* a no-go.

* Neglecting the fact that I engaged frigs all the time with them.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#5 - 2012-10-01 17:17:16 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
but wont ppl just try cramming 4x bcs in there, and then tell you your doing it wrong for not ?


Most people are enamored by EFT DPS and forget that applied DPS is what actually matters in game.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Belthazor4011
Battle BV Redux
#6 - 2012-10-01 17:28:55 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
but wont ppl just try cramming 4x bcs in there, and then tell you your doing it wrong for not ?


Most people are enamored by EFT DPS and forget that applied DPS is what actually matters in game.

-Liang


This Cool
Renier Gaden
Immortal Guides
#7 - 2012-10-01 17:39:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Renier Gaden
Light missiles are getting a buff too (or has that already gone live?), so Rapid Light Missile launchers will be even more effective against frigates. Not sure if they would do enough DPS to fight another cruiser though. I suppose that reducing the explosion radius probably does not make much difference against a Cruiser size target, but didn’t they also get a strait DPS buff too?

Edit: Against Frigates this might be a perfect storm. Light Missile Buff + TE buff to missiles + Caracal buff.
Vokradacka
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-10-01 18:54:08 UTC
AML caracal with 180 dps(3 bcs) is still crap vs T2 frigates ..
HAM javelin ill make 270 dps at 70km (390 at 40km+crap tank), not bad but .... still sub
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#9 - 2012-10-02 00:38:36 UTC
I was reading on F&I that the TE/TC change is not going live in the winter expansion.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hirimatsu Yamamoto
AGGRESSIVE ASSET RELOCATION
#10 - 2012-10-02 01:25:08 UTC
Belthazor4011 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
but wont ppl just try cramming 4x bcs in there, and then tell you your doing it wrong for not ?


Most people are enamored by EFT DPS and forget that applied DPS is what actually matters in game.

-Liang


This Cool


I Second this THIS :P
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-10-02 02:05:05 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
but wont ppl just try cramming 4x bcs in there, and then tell you your doing it wrong for not ?


Most people are enamored by EFT DPS and forget that applied DPS is what actually matters in game.

-Liang


Honestly, in the case of HAM's, this really depends upon whether or not the "tracking" bonus (explosion velocity/explosion radius) actually aplies to HAM's... Cause if explosion radius doesn't apply, and using webs negates the effect of explosion velocity bonus, there isn't really that much reason to fit tracking enhancers/tracking computers over BCU's/webs.

Now, if there is info out there about how they are planning on making this work, I'll be more than happy to read about it, but so far it appears to still be hiding in CCP's black box of doom.

-Arazel
Hirimatsu Yamamoto
AGGRESSIVE ASSET RELOCATION
#12 - 2012-10-02 02:09:37 UTC
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
but wont ppl just try cramming 4x bcs in there, and then tell you your doing it wrong for not ?


Most people are enamored by EFT DPS and forget that applied DPS is what actually matters in game.

-Liang


Honestly, in the case of HAM's, this really depends upon whether or not the "tracking" bonus (explosion velocity/explosion radius) actually aplies to HAM's... Cause if explosion radius doesn't apply, and using webs negates the effect of explosion velocity bonus, there isn't really that much reason to fit tracking enhancers/tracking computers over BCU's/webs.

Now, if there is info out there about how they are planning on making this work, I'll be more than happy to read about it, but so far it appears to still be hiding in CCP's black box of doom.

-Arazel


So, in the mean time, lets sing the Doom song! :D
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#13 - 2012-10-02 02:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
but wont ppl just try cramming 4x bcs in there, and then tell you your doing it wrong for not ?


Most people are enamored by EFT DPS and forget that applied DPS is what actually matters in game.

-Liang


Honestly, in the case of HAM's, this really depends upon whether or not the "tracking" bonus (explosion velocity/explosion radius) actually aplies to HAM's... Cause if explosion radius doesn't apply, and using webs negates the effect of explosion velocity bonus, there isn't really that much reason to fit tracking enhancers/tracking computers over BCU's/webs.

Now, if there is info out there about how they are planning on making this work, I'll be more than happy to read about it, but so far it appears to still be hiding in CCP's black box of doom.

-Arazel


It has been confirmed to work with all missiles... at least when they get around to implementing it.

-Liang

Ed: In the mean time, GMP is going to start working with unguided missiles. More details in the F&I thread, if you can stomach reading it. (I can't)

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#14 - 2012-10-02 11:27:50 UTC
Belthazor4011 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
but wont ppl just try cramming 4x bcs in there, and then tell you your doing it wrong for not ?


Most people are enamored by EFT DPS and forget that applied DPS is what actually matters in game.

-Liang


This Cool


Yet when i say that i get flamed...
Denuo Secus
#15 - 2012-10-02 19:53:56 UTC
So after missile and TE/TC/TD changes are revised the GMP skill affecting HAMs is left (beside some T2 missile changes). I tried to make a guess how HAMs will benefit from this skill when attacking a frig...using the EFT DPS graph. I used a 3 BCS Navy Caracal (with pre-change HMs) as a substitute for a >2 low slot post-boost Caracal. Target was a MWDing Merlin with a sig of 234m:

- HM Navy Caracal (GMP at 0): 64 DPS
- HM Navy Caracal (GMP at 5): 78 DPS
= factor 1,21875

- HAM Navy Caracal (unaffected by GMP): 59 DPS
= HAM Navy Caracal (GMP at 5): 71 DPS

Not sure if this simple calculation is conform to the in-game performance though...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#16 - 2012-10-02 19:57:10 UTC
Is this including or excluding the TE/TC/TD change?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ginger Barbarella
#17 - 2012-10-02 20:19:58 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Belthazor4011 wrote:
Currently using HAMs against frigs is ******** lol

Not sure due to the TE/TC changes and how well they will work. With 4 lows it should be able to fit a couple.



but wont ppl just try cramming 4x bcs in there, and then tell you your doing it wrong for not ?


Yes, they will. :) I saw some EFT warrior posting a fit with 6x SPR IIs... I lol'd... :)

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Denuo Secus
#18 - 2012-10-02 20:41:14 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Is this including or excluding the TE/TC/TD change?

-Liang


Only the skill.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#19 - 2012-10-02 21:36:54 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Is this including or excluding the TE/TC/TD change?

-Liang


Only the skill.


Huh, that could be an exciting change. It seems like the biggest question to me is an AB frigate and a webbed AB frigate. The TE change is what would potentially give you the range to make HAMs "viable" against a kiting MWD frig.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-10-02 23:03:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Denuo Secus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Is this including or excluding the TE/TC/TD change?

-Liang


Only the skill.


Huh, that could be an exciting change. It seems like the biggest question to me is an AB frigate and a webbed AB frigate. The TE change is what would potentially give you the range to make HAMs "viable" against a kiting MWD frig.

-Liang



Is the new Caracal loosing his drones?

brb
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