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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3681 - 2012-10-01 03:00:07 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
What i am saying is that CCP is either super bad at balancing things or voluntarily making some stuff bad for unknown reasons. Well, unknown to me..

I mean Sleipner + cyclone + Web....... Yeah, they know how to balance stuff. Or they have a goal..... That goal clearely includes drake being nerfed to unusable level.

I guess it makes you feel better to think your precious drake will be unusable. Carry on.


Well, honestly with just the missile nerf I can almost certain that drakes and maybe even tengus won't be used in the next alliance tournament.

They have always relied on kiting in order to compete.

With a large loss in range they won't be effective at kiting anymore and brawler missile boats don't last long.

I fear the removal of the drake as a competitive ship.

The tengu on the other hand will still be competitive, but I'm not sure it would be worth it anymore... it is a lot of isk
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#3682 - 2012-10-01 03:08:26 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
What i am saying is that CCP is either super bad at balancing things or voluntarily making some stuff bad for unknown reasons. Well, unknown to me..

I mean Sleipner + cyclone + Web....... Yeah, they know how to balance stuff. Or they have a goal..... That goal clearely includes drake being nerfed to unusable level.

I guess it makes you feel better to think your precious drake will be unusable. Carry on.


Well, honestly with just the missile nerf I can almost certain that drakes and maybe even tengus won't be used in the next alliance tournament.

They have always relied on kiting in order to compete.

With a large loss in range they won't be effective at kiting anymore and brawler missile boats don't last long.

I fear the removal of the drake as a competitive ship.

The tengu on the other hand will still be competitive, but I'm not sure it would be worth it anymore... it is a lot of isk


Because Drakes were used to such a great success in the last tournament.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3683 - 2012-10-01 03:39:32 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
What i am saying is that CCP is either super bad at balancing things or voluntarily making some stuff bad for unknown reasons. Well, unknown to me..

I mean Sleipner + cyclone + Web....... Yeah, they know how to balance stuff. Or they have a goal..... That goal clearely includes drake being nerfed to unusable level.

I guess it makes you feel better to think your precious drake will be unusable. Carry on.


Well, honestly with just the missile nerf I can almost certain that drakes and maybe even tengus won't be used in the next alliance tournament.

They have always relied on kiting in order to compete.

With a large loss in range they won't be effective at kiting anymore and brawler missile boats don't last long.

I fear the removal of the drake as a competitive ship.

The tengu on the other hand will still be competitive, but I'm not sure it would be worth it anymore... it is a lot of isk


Because Drakes were used to such a great success in the last tournament.


Yeah....
Just imagine how well they'll do now....
Sigras
Conglomo
#3684 - 2012-10-01 04:32:26 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
I can understand nerfing heavy missile launchers, but the Cane is perfect the way it is, and not in a bad way. The Cane is what every other battlecruiser should be modeled after.

see that's just your opinion, but IMHO, the hurricane is overpowered and eclipses all of the T1 cruisers, and some of the T2 cruisers.

What they're essentially doing is making you choose between the largest guns/tank and and medium neuts

You should have to make that sacrifice, you cant have everything with the cane any more and thats the way it should be.
Theo Ramone
Stryker Industries
Stryker Group
#3685 - 2012-10-01 04:34:27 UTC
If you nerf the missile range can you also nerf ECM/logi range?

As it stands today the only thing you can use to drive away ewar and rep ships is those "overpowered" missiles. It'll be super awesome when you can park your non DPS ships at 70 k and jam/rep all damn day because no weapon system worth a damn can reach them.
Sigras
Conglomo
#3686 - 2012-10-01 04:40:03 UTC
you mean like HMLs with tracking enhancers? or artillery? or beam lasers?

or ships that are . . . you know . . . designed to fight at that range?
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#3687 - 2012-10-01 05:22:53 UTC
Theo Ramone wrote:
If you nerf the missile range can you also nerf ECM/logi range?

As it stands today the only thing you can use to drive away ewar and rep ships is those "overpowered" missiles. It'll be super awesome when you can park your non DPS ships at 70 k and jam/rep all damn day because no weapon system worth a damn can reach them.


They are not nerfing the range, just making it a fitting option ffs, read. -25% base, 1 TC = 30% Increase, net 5% increase. This is only for heavy missiles all other missiles just get the 30% increase from the TC.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3688 - 2012-10-01 09:35:12 UTC
You just made my day ... seriously, learn to read *and* understand what people said:

Lili Lu wrote:


And then there's this gem of a post by you -
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Drake all l5 except BC, which I set on 0 manually to get the res bonus away will have a bit below 83k EHP with 2 invul, 2 LSE, 3 extender rigs and a DC II. Thats not a small number, agreed, but less than 90k and over 20k less than a HG Slaved Harby ..

Ugh Ok, no Drake is ever flown with the BC skill at 0. I mean wtf do you smoke? We have no knowledge that the resist bonus is going anywhere. And then you keep bringing up HG Slaved Harbys as if they are everywhere. You clearly must be hallucinating them everywhere. I know this is an artificial reality, but you take it to a whole new level. I pray you never sell what you are smoking because the world will be doomed if you do.Lol The more I'm reading your posts the more I think you have to be putting one on. I applaud your mastery of the art sir.P


I responded to some other guy who did the maths for a Drake without resistance bonus and figured out a wrong number. I just corrected him, never said Drakes can or will be flown at BC lvl 0. Even in this "gem of a post" I explained what I do "all l5 except BC, which I set on 0 manually to get the res bonus away" .. I mean, wtf do YOU smoke to get this posting of mine so completely wrong? And my comparison with a slaved Harbinger is valid, just because there *are* slaved Harbis (and also slaved plate Canes) in lowsec. And even more in highsec. If you dont know about them it might be you who is wrong there.

My offer for a 1on1 test HAM Drake vs ANY tier 2 BC close range was rejected by this guy who claimed before HAM Drake beats them all ... he said he wants to wait til HAMs are fixed. He could just have said "I have to correct my statement, HAM Drake is only better than the other 3 if the other 3 and the Drake all neglect drones (which I know they should not). If they are all allowed to use every aspect of the ship they have, the HAM Drake will lose a 1on1 to all 3 other tier 2 BC"

You agreed yourself on the fact the Drake is NOT overused over the Cane in low and high, in fact you said the Cane is stronger in numbers there, but this "wont justify" in your opinion the overuse of Drakes in nullsec.

you are ofc allowed to think like this. Me and many others feel the other way round: we dont think the overuse of Drakes in nullsec blobs is something which justifies a nerf of a ship (and/or its weapon system) which works well but not OP in all other parts of this game, esp. when you compare the OPness of a whole race and their overuse in every part of Eve now, be it PvP or PvE.

I, however, agreed on the idea of bringing medium long range a bit more in line with each other. Allow HML to deal substantial DPS at closer ranges like the counterparts do, give HML dedicated long range ammo which makes it WORTH shooting on far away targets by having small DPS (like turrets) but fast hits too (nearly like turrets), so your
enemy wont be 2 times in warp before the first salvo could actually be there. Still the result should be the Drake is not 4th of 4 in close combat and 4th of 4 in long range. If its last in one its perfectly ok that its first in the other one. Even you with your biased viewpoint cant neglect this fact. Or maybe you can, we will see how you make me laugh next time :)

Lili Lu wrote:

You two make me laugh. Keep posting. You will move this thread well past page 200.Pirate


Thanks, can give that back to you. I never met someone with worse skills in understanding reasonable arguments :)
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3689 - 2012-10-01 09:42:05 UTC
I've been looking at the current mechanics of TD, TE, and TCs, and I have some concerns.

A scripted TD in the hands of a skilled recon pilot will reduce range or tracking by 62.81% per unit before stacking penalties. TE/TC come no where near that when increasing missile stats. TE give 15% optimal, 30% falloff, and 9.5% tracking. Range scripted TC gives the same range bonuses as the TE. Tracking scripted TC gives 30% tracking.

But perhaps it is bad to compare a recon's bonuses to a non-bonused ship. So... Scripted TD does 40.2%, base.

In all cases, the Tracking Disruptor will outperform any method of enhancement currently available. This is not good.

One way of correcting this imbalance would be to buff TE/TC. But then you have issues with all turrets getting a sudden buff, which is not a good idea when you're trying to balance things.

Another option would be to nerf TD. This is something that can be explored and is worthy of some play testing on the test server. But nerfing an underused EWAR mod may not be the best choice. And again, turret balance issues may arise.

A third option would be to create new items that affect only missiles. But it was my impression that the idea was to have a unified weapon disruptor. So perhaps that is not within the scope of the plan. This would also require a lot more dev time and work.

As an extension to option 3, we could get missile-focused scripts. This would also require more dev time. But not so much as a new module I think.

Option 4 is my personal choice, which is why I saved it for last. Just add stats to the current TD/TE/TC so that they affect missiles. No balance issues will arise in regards to turrets. No new resources need be created. Much less dev time.

I would suggest using the current stats as a baseline. Optimal+falloff for range. Split Tracking between explosion velocity and speed. Now either increase the missile bonuses on TE/TC so as to have a reasonable chance of getting a net 0 when being TDed, or nerf the TD missile penalties to match those of the TE/TC.

I would like to remind everyone that one of the facets of missiles is that they project damage better than equivalent turrets. So seriously, CCP. Nerfing missile range will pretty much kill them, because once you close on a missile boat, they usually diaf.

I am looking I am looking forward to seeing more Pilgrims. Time to train Amarr Cruiser 5?



http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3690 - 2012-10-01 09:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Oh, and about your quotation of Gypsios IIIs kills and losses - he has more kills than I do (this is not my main char), and I dont deny he has to have experience. Yet I dont see he did his kills with mostly Drakes and HML, in fact he killed not a lot with Drakes at all. Nor did I see recent HAM Drake kills of him. He did reject my 1on1 offer anyway, just because he *knew* with all of his experience it was not a smart idea to go to a 1on1 with a HAM Drake vs any other tier 2 BC and expect to win.

Dont get me wrong there, the HAM Drake is not "bad" in a way its totally UP. Its just so much worse it wont win normally (given equal skills and so on). The other ship will not be in good shape afterwards, so in a smart gang this evens out a bit. And if one pilot has not maxed skills or messes up, the Drake can maybe get the edge.

This all will maybe even out a bit more with the new patch, I would like to see that. Until then a Drake pilot who wants to be as efficient as possible should stick with HML and range. And since it is atm the only viable ranged missile platform (apart from Tengu, ok) for Caldari, and the only really competitive and not too expensive missile PvP ship at *all* (except maybe Torp-Phoon, which is not Caldari ..) I do feel like this nerf shouldnt be applied, and if it will be still applied then only with a viable alternative for missile dedicated Caldari pilots (who have no chance to just change from one turret system to another like a turret dedicated pilot can do due to support skills), for example a FINALLY working CM / Raven (and Torp / Raven).

Please note again: even if I am Caldari as main, I can fly any subcap combat ship except BO at all l5, including most popular specs like med/large AC, large Arty, large Laser and HML. Also drones on all l5 for subcap. So for me it means nothing. Sleipnir, Cyclone, Cane, whatever - I can use all Winmatar and have fun with them. But I hope for more balance, because this is what makes this game shine. Or at least, what would make it shine ...

And yeah, admitted: I also use Machariel in PvE and to a much lesser degree in PvP. I use Mares, and for blitzing some Gurista missions I use also the Tengu. But I nearly never use my Golem, nor my CNR .. just because they are less efficient in what I want to do when I do missions: make as much ISK/h as possible with no risk of PvP except ganks (which are not an issue atm for me).
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3691 - 2012-10-01 11:40:31 UTC
Hey everyone. Spent part of the morning catching up on the posts here over the weekend. I'm planning on posting the 2.0 version of these missile changes here later today after I make sure that the CSM have enough time to get their feedback across.
The basic preview of what you should expect is that we're separating the proposal into multiple parts so we can put some of it out in the winter and then re-evaluate the rest for subsequent patches.

BTW I want to make clear that we don't balance ships around the alliance tournament. It's a very different environment than normal TQ fighting.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3692 - 2012-10-01 11:59:30 UTC
Tengu and drake gonna die totally. No one will use tengu because all other T3's will be way better. Also no one will use drake because all other BC's are way better. So these 2 will die and disappear from eve just like happened to ferox.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#3693 - 2012-10-01 12:01:43 UTC
Noemi, you never offered me a 1v1, so stop claiming that you did. As far as I can tell, you threatened to set mercs on me. Shocked

Noemi Nagano wrote:
I invite you to stop modeling things, but play the actual game. I can provide you with people who will gladly burn you down ingame to show how wrong you are.


Despite your threats, I'm very happy to help demonstrate HAMs to you. Not your hired mercs, not some hired "Elite PVPer" with HG Slaves that you'll buy, but you. It's slightly absurd to do it now, since in this thread we're discussing how the Drake will perform after the changes, although you've spent a lot of time talking about the Vargur for some reason, but doing it pre-changes may be helpful for you.

In fact it would be sensible to run a series of these tests. Against a basic HAM Drake, here are my predictions, given "reasonable " fittings (no kinetic-specific hardeners, no pirate implant sets, no link t3s, but drugs are fine):

Brutix will lose in both shield and armour fits
Active Cyclone will very likely win
Buffer Ferox will lose, active Ferox has a chance of winning
Prophecy will lose

Hurricane will lose in both armour and shield fits
Myrm will lose in buffer shield, win in active armour and probably win in ASB fits
Harbinger will lose in both armour and shield fits

I need to investigate the ASB options for Hurricane and Harbinger, so I may update these this evening, but I don't think things like ASB Canes are particularly viable.
Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3694 - 2012-10-01 12:03:34 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
Theo Ramone wrote:
If you nerf the missile range can you also nerf ECM/logi range?

As it stands today the only thing you can use to drive away ewar and rep ships is those "overpowered" missiles. It'll be super awesome when you can park your non DPS ships at 70 k and jam/rep all damn day because no weapon system worth a damn can reach them.


They are not nerfing the range, just making it a fitting option ffs, read. -25% base, 1 TC = 30% Increase, net 5% increase. This is only for heavy missiles all other missiles just get the 30% increase from the TC.


Eh you do know when you fit one TE it means -1 BCU which means hml's crappy dps is gonna be even more crappy. Caldari doesnt have 6 low slots of minmatar boats. Maybe buff drake and tengu then and give them 6 low slots...
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3695 - 2012-10-01 12:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Whiite
Retardo Khaan wrote:
Tengu and drake gonna die totally. No one will use tengu because all other T3's will be way better. Also no one will use drake because all other BC's are way better. So these 2 will die and disappear from eve just like happened to ferox.


No offence but, shall we wait untill these 2.0 changes are shown, before crying wolf.

I like my missiles as much as you do, though it speaks of respect when you wait to see what they changed, before whining, makes the chance someone listening far greater.
Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3696 - 2012-10-01 12:15:41 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
I can understand nerfing heavy missile launchers, but the Cane is perfect the way it is, and not in a bad way. The Cane is what every other battlecruiser should be modeled after.

see that's just your opinion, but IMHO, the hurricane is overpowered and eclipses all of the T1 cruisers, and some of the T2 cruisers.

What they're essentially doing is making you choose between the largest guns/tank and and medium neuts

You should have to make that sacrifice, you cant have everything with the cane any more and thats the way it should be.


Cane is OP its best BC in game atm. And its way OP compared to HAM drake. HAM drake need to spend one rig slot just fit short range guns which gives advantage to cane. Cane has better speed, better dps, better range, better drone bay, it can fit more neuts. Only thing ham drake has over cane is shield tank.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#3697 - 2012-10-01 12:17:37 UTC
Retardo Khaan wrote:
sYnc Vir wrote:
Theo Ramone wrote:
If you nerf the missile range can you also nerf ECM/logi range?

As it stands today the only thing you can use to drive away ewar and rep ships is those "overpowered" missiles. It'll be super awesome when you can park your non DPS ships at 70 k and jam/rep all damn day because no weapon system worth a damn can reach them.


They are not nerfing the range, just making it a fitting option ffs, read. -25% base, 1 TC = 30% Increase, net 5% increase. This is only for heavy missiles all other missiles just get the 30% increase from the TC.


Eh you do know when you fit one TE it means -1 BCU which means hml's crappy dps is gonna be even more crappy. Caldari doesnt have 6 low slots of minmatar boats. Maybe buff drake and tengu then and give them 6 low slots...


Well that depends on how it stacks doesnt it? A heavily penalised BCU removed in favour of a 100% strength TE might well allow for a much better application of said (lower) 'paper' damage.

I'd rather apply 85% of 500 dps than 45% of 850 dps....


This is one of the reaons I fancy the SNI as a monster post changes. Paper DPS won't be that high, but my god it'll get it ALL down on a target.
Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3698 - 2012-10-01 12:19:01 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Retardo Khaan wrote:
Tengu and drake gonna die totally. No one will use tengu because all other T3's will be way better. Also no one will use drake because all other BC's are way better. So these 2 will die and disappear from eve just like happened to ferox.


No offence but, shall we wait untill these 2.0 changes are shown, before crying wolf.

I like my missiles as much as you do, though it speaks of respect when you wait to see what they changed, before whining, makes the chance someone listening far greater.


Well yea i like missiles too. But i do also fly minmatar and gallente aswell and i do also have loki. Actually im allready selling my tengu. Il just buy machariel to replace it and then i can use those OP projectiles and forgot missiles ever exits..
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3699 - 2012-10-01 12:24:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
sYnc Vir wrote:
Theo Ramone wrote:
If you nerf the missile range can you also nerf ECM/logi range?

As it stands today the only thing you can use to drive away ewar and rep ships is those "overpowered" missiles. It'll be super awesome when you can park your non DPS ships at 70 k and jam/rep all damn day because no weapon system worth a damn can reach them.


They are not nerfing the range, just making it a fitting option ffs, read. -25% base, 1 TC = 30% Increase, net 5% increase. This is only for heavy missiles all other missiles just get the 30% increase from the TC.


This isnt how math works, say you have 40km range:
40 * 0,75 = 30
30 * 1,3 = 39
It's actually a 2,5% nerf even if you fit 1 TE.
Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3700 - 2012-10-01 12:25:35 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Retardo Khaan wrote:
sYnc Vir wrote:
Theo Ramone wrote:
If you nerf the missile range can you also nerf ECM/logi range?

As it stands today the only thing you can use to drive away ewar and rep ships is those "overpowered" missiles. It'll be super awesome when you can park your non DPS ships at 70 k and jam/rep all damn day because no weapon system worth a damn can reach them.


They are not nerfing the range, just making it a fitting option ffs, read. -25% base, 1 TC = 30% Increase, net 5% increase. This is only for heavy missiles all other missiles just get the 30% increase from the TC.


Eh you do know when you fit one TE it means -1 BCU which means hml's crappy dps is gonna be even more crappy. Caldari doesnt have 6 low slots of minmatar boats. Maybe buff drake and tengu then and give them 6 low slots...


Well that depends on how it stacks doesnt it? A heavily penalised BCU removed in favour of a 100% strength TE might well allow for a much better application of said (lower) 'paper' damage.

I'd rather apply 85% of 500 dps than 45% of 850 dps....


This is one of the reaons I fancy the SNI as a monster post changes. Paper DPS won't be that high, but my god it'll get it ALL down on a target.



'Well sure you have point there. But the fact is your not going to do 500dps with nerfed hml drake. 350dps - BCU might be closer without drones. Its just number from my head but im sure its closer to truth than 500. Currently you get 500ish dps with all V + 3 BCU + drones.