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Official Protest - Mittani should be removed from CSM - *** UPDATED RESPONSE POSTED ***

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Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#321 - 2011-10-17 07:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Xython
Just Another Toon wrote:
This is why you should be removed.. Your core fundamentals are wrong and you are not fit to serve any of the eve playerbase. Your represent everything that is bad about eve. Everything! You are in a position of TRUST!! You are not worthy or fit to hold that postition. You gain your position by manipulation. This is corruption to the core.


So no one from nullsec should be on the CSM?

In other words, you're a pubbie with no clue about, oh, 60% of the game's mechanics? Good to know.
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#322 - 2011-10-17 07:21:01 UTC
I enjoy this hisec vs rest of the game thing that has developed from this. The usual counter people will use is some bland statement about a "sandbox", but I believe that actually totally underscores the point. Nullsec, lowsec, piracy, ganking, griefing, that IS the game, of course with the corollary that this competition is what drives the incredible player-driven cooperation that makes makes this game what it is.

Hisec, starter systems, missions, that stuff exists solely as a means to get you to the actual game because the actual game is so ******* harsh that without this island for people to dip their toes in, they couldn't maintain the critical mass necessary to keep Eve going. That's all your piece of the sandbox is, a rubber room for beginners, the fact that you choose to stay there is your fault, not everyone else's (in fact, it's CCP's fault for making it too safe and not better transitioning people out of hisec).

People will respond by saying that committed hisecers make up x% of subs. However, that is simply because this game is so harsh that many people who join with some vague notion of competing find they don't in fact have what it takes. However, they join and continue to play because this game of Eve, the actual game, is being played by someone. I am absolutely confident when I say that if this game was solely hisecers shooting red crosses etc, it would not exist. People play this game because ghsc pulled off a year long infiltration, sirmolle tried to conquer all of nullsec, goonswarm disbanded bob etc or because of amazing stories their friends told them of daring pirate attacks or similarly fearless rescues and so on.

The simple fact is that if you created a shard universe of just hisec, the subs wouldn't cover the cost to maintain it. No one would play. The fact that there are people who don't recognize that hisec is just an extension of the actual game and wouldn't even exist if it wasn't necessary to ease people into the actual game because of how vicious it can truly be just shows that hisec needs to be made less safe and people need to be introduced to the actual game earlier and more forcefully. Ironically, that is exactly what goons are doing, and the fact that they are able to teach this lesson repeatedly just shows that hisec is far too comfy and insulated from the actual game.

I agree that lowsec emptiness and nullsec malaise are serious problems, but I believe those problems actually ultimately stem from the fact that threads like this even exist in the first place because people have forgotten why they even paid that initial subscription to try and compete in this amazing game they heard so much about.

Yes, I just seriousposted on eve-o gd, and I am correspondingly sickened and ashamed.
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#323 - 2011-10-17 07:21:22 UTC
Xython wrote:
non judgement wrote:
Phew, While reading this thread, for a second there, I thought the CSM ran CCP and EVE. Like they were the ones in power.
They are only advisers.

CCP really is dumb enough to not be able to tell when one of their advisers has a vested interest in a part of their world?

So you're saying the ideal CSM ... wouldn't have any interest in the game?

I know, lets hire the Final Fantasy 14 GM team for our CSM staff next time! They'll definitely not have any "vested interest" in the game.

I wrote a nice and long reply to this but then stopped and decided not to post it. Since you're obviously a troll.
What I said is very straight forward and I didn't mean anything more.

If anyone needs me, I'll be off reading about FF14. Just incase their GMs do indeed have to have some knowledge of EVEs existance.
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#324 - 2011-10-17 07:21:31 UTC
Just Another Toon wrote:
This is why you should be removed.. Your core fundamentals are wrong and you are not fit to serve any of the eve playerbase. Your represent everything that is bad about eve. Everything! You are in a position of TRUST!! You are not worthy or fit to hold that postition. You gain your position by manipulation. This is corruption to the core.



Actually as a GSF diplomat I am one of the few people in our alliance who can't scam.


Doesn't matter though since how I play the game has nothing to do with how I conduct myself as a CSM rep since those are two completely different roles. Unless I'm breaking EULA or the NDA then you're just mad about our playing style and wishing that we'd try to be politicians in our off time instead of just doing what we've always done as players.

You really need to get over it.
Just Another Toon
Doomheim
#325 - 2011-10-17 07:22:26 UTC
Anna Lynne Larson wrote:
Just Another Toon wrote:
Tts seems lately goons and in particular The Mittani are stirring up lots of problems with eve.
Firstly he ordered the killing of ice miners

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19206&find=unread

and now in C&P more scamming going on

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=20988&find=unread

This is just recent, but there is the whole concept of what The Mittani and Goons represent. The represent everything that is wrong and bad about eve, scourning misery amongst eve players, the whole concept of scamming. Goonswarm can simply not be trusted in anyway and neither can its leadership, which in turn is the Chair of The CSM.

Now whether you believe scamming is part of the game or not, its actually bad for the game and to be honest the future of the game, how can you expect new players to want to enjoy the game and stay in the game when you have the biggest noob recruitment alliance, scamming them as soon as they enter the game? No wonder people leave.

Many people in eve do not know how goons work as a fundamental scamming alliance, and when people deal with someone like The Mittani who is supposed to represent the players as a whole, believe that he would be trustworthy, because he holds this position. Of course they would.. But The Mittani is using this to his own and his alliances advantage.


Its total abuse of his CSM position, where people will trust him and he is abusing that. Its not on nor acceptable. CSM members are seen as people that hold some trust and this should not be allowed by any CSM member when they are in post. Mittani is abusing his power and is not fit to hold this post...

Even Vile Rat should be removed too as he also represents what goons are..

You may ask, well he plays the game too, why cant he scam.?
Well he can, even though I personally hate scammers, eve allows it. The issue isnt about scamming as such, its about a person who is supposed to be held in high regard by the players, and abusing this to scam people. However his other actions suchs as attacking ice miners etc is not in the best interested of the game either. I quote the CSM Scope.


The purpose of the CSM is to represent society interests to CCP. This requires active engagement with the player community to master EVE issue awareness, understanding, and evaluation in the context of the “greatest good for the greater player base”. The scope of issues is restricted only to EVE, its ongoing development, and limited meta (out-of-game) issues which have direct relevance to the EVE universe. It is important to keep in mind that the CSM will not have formal powers within CCP, they will have a voice inside CCP.


Some people stated and The Mittani also stated that he represents HIS constituents. This is Goons not the the playerbase! Now some are saying well only 1700 of those votes he got was from Goons the rest wasnt.

Seriously? Do you expect us to believe that the rest (or most of) where not from Goon alts or second/third accounts alts?

However the scope clearly states there should be active engagement with the 'PlayerBase' and also act “greatest good for the greater player base” this clearly is not the case, how can the biggest alliance which The Mittani Leads, which actively involves itself in scamming, and things like the miner slaughter si 'for the greater good of the player base' Its not! at all!

The issue isnt wth the scamming or attacking whatever, its about players seeing these people as people they can trust! But they use this position of trust to abuse the game, such as scamming.
If a person contacts a CSM about anything in game, most players would expect to be treat with honesty.

Then they get scammed, how can that be good for the game, and what the CSM represents? Seriously

Its plain downright corruption.

If this wish to do what they do, fine, but the should not be in a position that represents players TRUST, they should step down!

No wonder eve is dying cos ccp allows stuff like this to happen from the CSM Chair..

Im sure many goons/alts will troll the thread so flame away - sticks and stones

but if you agree +1 like this post, i think its about time we stood up to this cr@p

I will also be filing an official petition and also be contacting as many MMO editorials as possible, to give this maximum exposure, on how much this is not right.

keep liking guys - even if you dont want to post ...



TOP QUOTE

"Being the CSM chairman doesn't mean that you're bound to a more limited set of rules as a player than anyone else. It's EVE, he can abuse his title as much as he wants as long as he doesn't breach NDA (like Darius III did)"


HOLY SH*T IS THIS TRUE - CCP PLEASE DONT TELL ME THIS IS TRUE!! OMFG EvilEvilEvil



You don't get EVE. The CSM are PLAYERS. Players are allowed to do whatever the **** they want. That includes issuing a game-wide embargo on Blue Ice; if it's within the rules (and suicide ganking and market manipulation ARE), then it can be done.

You're just mad.


You just dont get it do you...
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#326 - 2011-10-17 07:23:24 UTC
Just Another Toon wrote:


You just dont get it do you...


We get it. We get that you got sand in your vag, riding your bitter bus to lemon town.

Grats.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#327 - 2011-10-17 07:23:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Renan Ruivo
Vile rat wrote:
You seem to be confusing one role we play (CSM representative) for the other role we play (Player, playing a game.). Maybe this is why you're so upset?

Oh no, you aren't suggesting that we need to model our playing style to fit your preconceived notions just because we sit on an elected CCP advisory board? I assume you aren't cause that would be kinda dumb don't you think?

If you approach Mittani about buying a non existant supercap and get scammed then good for him, you're dumb. That has nothing to do with the CSM and your lack of critical thinking skills got you where you are today.


Personally i just dislike alliance leaders as CSM's because you guys get exposed to information that can be used as a tactical advantage in-game, like knowing beforehand about something that is getting nerfed and/or buffed. For instance, you could have been made aware of the jumpbridge nerf three to four weeks, maybe more than a month before it was made publicly known so one can argue that you guys had that much more time to adapt and prepare than any other alliances.

And even if you wanted to let other alliances know for the sake of fair-play you can't because of the NDA. If i'm the leader of an alliance, and i get to know about something like that, i will divide myself into two roles like i have double personality. Nobody can help but use whatever information they are given.


But that is a whole different concern that has nothing to do with what the OP is whining about.. at any rate.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Just Another Toon
Doomheim
#328 - 2011-10-17 07:23:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Just Another Toon
Vile rat wrote:
Just Another Toon wrote:
This is why you should be removed.. Your core fundamentals are wrong and you are not fit to serve any of the eve playerbase. Your represent everything that is bad about eve. Everything! You are in a position of TRUST!! You are not worthy or fit to hold that postition. You gain your position by manipulation. This is corruption to the core.



Actually as a GSF diplomat I am one of the few people in our alliance who can't scam.


Doesn't matter though since how I play the game has nothing to do with how I conduct myself as a CSM rep since those are two completely different roles. Unless I'm breaking EULA or the NDA then you're just mad about our playing style and wishing that we'd try to be politicians in our off time instead of just doing what we've always done as players.

You really need to get over it.



Oh that is rubbish, and you still represent Goons full stop, Goons are about scamming, about the worse thing about eve, about a community. You are (and in your own words) Vile.

Im sure your alts dont scam either...Yeah right...

No sorry but this is pure downright abuse of power and corruption. I have already contacted a few external editorials and will continually do so. You are bad for the game and bad for eve. Enough is enough now, and will no longer be tolerated.
Masamune Dekoro
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#329 - 2011-10-17 07:24:55 UTC
If EVE was run by a democratic political system, the CSMs would be held accountable for their actions and unlawful behaviour would justly be punished.

EVE is not a democracy. If you look at it as a whole, it's more of a mish mash of feudal states and empires vying for control of the areas they claim as their own.

But of course, this is obvious.

Let's look at history - in feudal times, the most successful leaders weren't those who upheld law and justice and followed all the rules; they were the ones who used any means necessary to win, be it underhand or otherwise.

You can't apply real world rules to a sandbox game which operates completely differently.

The CSMs have no in game advantage, aside from their reputation. Last time I checked , they weren't even handed State Issue Ravens as congratulatory presents for their election. I could make a character tomorrow with the first name CSM (just did to check it was possible), and if I managed to scam someone into allowing me to mediate the transmission of a tonne of isk, i'd be well within the bounds of the game and the EULA. As long as you don't impersonate a CCP employee, who you are or who you claim to be is entirely up to you.


>>TL;DR<< EVE is a feudal sandbox. CSMs are players too. Fancy prefixes impress stupid people.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#330 - 2011-10-17 07:25:45 UTC
Just Another Toon wrote:

No sorry but this is pure downright abuse of power and corruption. I have already contacted a few external editorials and will continually do so. You are bad for the game and bad for eve. Enough is enough now, and will no longer be tolerated.


Off to parade on Wall Street too?

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#331 - 2011-10-17 07:25:48 UTC
Just Another Toon wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
Just Another Toon wrote:
This is why you should be removed.. Your core fundamentals are wrong and you are not fit to serve any of the eve playerbase. Your represent everything that is bad about eve. Everything! You are in a position of TRUST!! You are not worthy or fit to hold that postition. You gain your position by manipulation. This is corruption to the core.



Actually as a GSF diplomat I am one of the few people in our alliance who can't scam.


Doesn't matter though since how I play the game has nothing to do with how I conduct myself as a CSM rep since those are two completely different roles. Unless I'm breaking EULA or the NDA then you're just mad about our playing style and wishing that we'd try to be politicians in our off time instead of just doing what we've always done as players.

You really need to get over it.


No sorry but this is pure downright abuse of power and corruption. I have already contacted a few external editorials and will continually do so. You are bad for the game and bad for eve. Enough is enough now, and will no longer be tolerated.


You are trying to get more people to laught at you? Is what they are saying so hard for you to comprehend?

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Just Another Toon
Doomheim
#332 - 2011-10-17 07:26:14 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
Just Another Toon wrote:

No sorry but this is pure downright abuse of power and corruption. I have already contacted a few external editorials and will continually do so. You are bad for the game and bad for eve. Enough is enough now, and will no longer be tolerated.


Off to parade on Wall Street too?


If possible yes...a man on a serious mission..
Just Another Toon
Doomheim
#333 - 2011-10-17 07:26:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Just Another Toon
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Just Another Toon wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
Just Another Toon wrote:
This is why you should be removed.. Your core fundamentals are wrong and you are not fit to serve any of the eve playerbase. Your represent everything that is bad about eve. Everything! You are in a position of TRUST!! You are not worthy or fit to hold that postition. You gain your position by manipulation. This is corruption to the core.



Actually as a GSF diplomat I am one of the few people in our alliance who can't scam.


Doesn't matter though since how I play the game has nothing to do with how I conduct myself as a CSM rep since those are two completely different roles. Unless I'm breaking EULA or the NDA then you're just mad about our playing style and wishing that we'd try to be politicians in our off time instead of just doing what we've always done as players.

You really need to get over it.


No sorry but this is pure downright abuse of power and corruption. I have already contacted a few external editorials and will continually do so. You are bad for the game and bad for eve. Enough is enough now, and will no longer be tolerated.


You are trying to get more people to laught at you? Is what they are saying so hard for you to comprehend?


Goon Alt spotted....Do you really think, silly words like this, will worry me, or hinder me? Really?
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#334 - 2011-10-17 07:27:33 UTC
Just Another Toon wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
Just Another Toon wrote:

No sorry but this is pure downright abuse of power and corruption. I have already contacted a few external editorials and will continually do so. You are bad for the game and bad for eve. Enough is enough now, and will no longer be tolerated.


Off to parade on Wall Street too?


If possible yes...a man on a serious mission..


Send me a postcard. From the asylum.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#335 - 2011-10-17 07:27:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Renan Ruivo
Just Another Toon wrote:
Do you really think, silly words like this, will worry me, or hinder me? Really?



Oh my god i fell for it you're such an obvious goon alt Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smile

And by the way did you edited your post to call me a goon alt?

If you knew anything about 0.0 and the alliances that live there, you'd know better lol

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#336 - 2011-10-17 07:27:58 UTC
While I don't prance about slippers made of "Pure Mittani™" as some of the more slavish among us (at least pretend to do) I am however at a loss why you even made this topic.

If The Mittani has an opinion on ice mining (which is wrong) he is entitled to such an opinion. Whether or not he has enough influence on the issue to force it through is debatable. He knows to little about wormhole space to impress people with his in depth knowledge in the field of "possible no risk ninja abc mining" so he would be outdone in a discussions with the other CSM (some of them actually live in wormholes and know their stuff) and this has been proven by discussions of the CSM so far.

If The Mittani, leader of goonswarm and former self proclaimed "spymaster" scammed people in EVE I can't say I am surprised. Its Goonswarms second calling or creed I believe or at least part of their mission statement, you deal with them at your own peril.

The only real thing that disturbs me in the The Mittani is his insistence in saying to people they should "die and/or shut up", however having listened to myself recently while driving I can't really point a finger accusingly. It is however behaviour that shouldn't be allowed from a CSM when he/she is commenting on "official" business or responding to a genuine concerns of players.

No fan of The Mittani, but often he makes some sense. He badly misjudged the whole aurm/nex store thing and thus allowed the incarna/ambulation project to be stillborn (no player control/influence/sandbox in stations = dead stations). But he was not alone in that and would have had little control over it until CCP changes/changed business practices.

So yes The Mittani can be annoying, but the OP should not have a hissy fit.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#337 - 2011-10-17 07:31:52 UTC
I find it impressive how many versions of goon alts and fake toons can have a conversation betweem themselves.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#338 - 2011-10-17 07:34:05 UTC
non judgement wrote:
Xython wrote:
non judgement wrote:
Phew, While reading this thread, for a second there, I thought the CSM ran CCP and EVE. Like they were the ones in power.
They are only advisers.

CCP really is dumb enough to not be able to tell when one of their advisers has a vested interest in a part of their world?

So you're saying the ideal CSM ... wouldn't have any interest in the game?

I know, lets hire the Final Fantasy 14 GM team for our CSM staff next time! They'll definitely not have any "vested interest" in the game.

I wrote a nice and long reply to this but then stopped and decided not to post it. Since you're obviously a troll.
What I said is very straight forward and I didn't mean anything more.


Not a troll, a Goon. Merch Industrial; specifically, KiTA from the Penny-Arcade forums.

But what you said certainly did not come across as very straight forward. Yes, every CSM has vested interests in the game -- they're passionate about EVE. That's why they are going through the hassle of being on the CSM and doing stuff like flying to CCP's home offices to help clean up their mess when they drop the ball.

And yes, some of them are PVPers. Fancy that, since this is a PVP Sandbox game. And yes, that includes suicide PVPing highsec people with no frustration tolerance. It's fun.

Remember CCP's motto? Harden the **** up.

But by all means, please explain if I'm misunderstanding. You appear to be suggesting he's abusing his CSM authority in some way, shape, or form by participating in PVP. Care to clarify that?
Vaffel Junior
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#339 - 2011-10-17 07:36:07 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
I find it impressive how many versions of goon alts and fake toons can have a conversation betweem themselves.


Its effective.... They can make CCP to change game for them.....
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#340 - 2011-10-17 07:36:14 UTC
Just Another Toon wrote:
Oh that is rubbish, and you still represent Goons full stop, Goons are about scamming, about the worse thing about eve , about a community. You are (and in your own words) Vile.


You see this is where you just flail around. You're critiquing a valid in game playstyle and trying to say that because we play the game a certain way we're not WORTHY of being voted in by the playerbase to represent them to CCP.




Quote:

Im sure your alts dont scam either...Yeah right...


Nope. I don't scam at all. I'm not allowed to. Granted it's my own rule, but it's one I enforce. I don't really need to though since I'm eve-rich.

Quote:

No sorry but this is pure downright abuse of power and corruption. I have already contacted a few external editorials and will continually do so. You are bad for the game and bad for eve. Enough is enough now, and will no longer be tolerated.



Ok outline the abuse and/or corruption. Go ahead. Be detailed.