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Retribution's New Bounty System

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#81 - 2012-10-01 09:16:28 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
The part that says "sell or rent out kill rights" is referring to the selling or renting out of kill rights.

Killrights at the moment are a system that isn't being used. Besides, many ganks are made upon industry or low-skill alts that wouldn't be able to take advantage of the killrights anyway.

I don't understand your objection to outsourcing a bit of pewpew. What's the difference between the original character attacking a person without consequence and someone else attacking the same person without consequence? Remember that many characters being ganked aren't skilled in pvp. Besides that, a percentage-based bounty system wouldn't work in highsec unless the mercenary was able to kill the target for profit. If the target flies a battlecruiser, suicide ganking for profit just isn't possible.

A wardec allows you to pay to attack someone. Buying killrights allows you to attack someone. The difference is, with a wardec, they could be innocent, they know you're coming and they'll fly a suitable pvp ship. With transferrable killrights, they've performed a criminal action, which they knew would create a kill right (this is important), you can catch them by surprise, and you're more able to catch them in something that'll hurt their wallet when it goes 'boom'.

I think another important difference is that a wardec will likely cost more but allows you to attack that person multiple times. A killright only works once. Whether or not it will cost more to buy will depend upon the bounty or the target, I guess.


Somehow missed that line Oops

The difference is that it's a whole different person. A person that you have done nothing to and thus have no way of knowing is after you. If the people who have outgoing killrights are unwilling to prosecute those killrights, that's their problem. They have access to the exact same skills and rules as everyone else..


In other words, you're complaining that criminals will be in the exact same situation as suicide gank victims, never knowing who's going to attack them or when?

I'm trying to think of a reason not to say "Well suck it up then", but I can't.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Pipa Porto
#82 - 2012-10-01 09:18:24 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
The percentage bounty means that the amount of bounty paid out is somewhere under the value of the ship, like the faction war LP system. It's not set by players. This means that getting a large enough bounty paid out to be worth your time means you need to attack a high-value ship. High-value ships just happen to be ships that require a large investment to gank. It has been made that to gank a ship you generally need to spend as much or more than the value of the ship to destroy it, especially with the no-insurance nerf to suicide ganking. For this reason suicide ganking ships for profit in the new bounty system is unlikely to be worthwhile. In the current system, suicide ganks for bounty profit are made using smartbomb battleships and this is only possible because the whole bounty is paid out at the same time.


I know a 250m ship that costs about 20m to gank. 25% of 250m > 20m.
I know of a ~6b ship that costs about 1b to gank if you're clever and ~2b if you're not. 25% of 6b is 1.5b.
25% is generally far lower than what you need to keep suicide from being profitable.
Ganking does not in any way need to cost as much as the ship's value, and in most cases does not. It's a rule of thumb that happens to be accurate with Freighters and that's about it.

Quote:
One intention for transferrable killrights is to allow people to purchase the right in anticipation of attacking someone to claim the bounty, because the cost of wardecs may just be too high for the amount of bounty you can expect to claim.


Then Suicide Gank them. If it's not worthwhile, wait until people get less cheap.

Quote:
You ask about risk for the person buying the killright. Please remember that while risk/reward is an important ratio in this game, risk isn't the only thing that nets you reward. The merc is investing isk into buying a killright that they may never get to use. And what about the risk for the ganker themselves? After making that gank they face almost zero risk of the victim using the killright. No-one even considers it, really - miners choose to aggress the ganker with their hobgoblins to get on the CONCORD mail rather than take the killrights.


What risk does the miner take in selling the killright? The ganker has the risk of being shot by the person who they ganked. The fact that people are too lazy to use those killrights is their choice.

Quote:
Yes. Killrights allow your character to take revenge on another character. Which is why they are currently all but useless.

Also your suggestion of training pvp skills on a mining alt is stupid. People don't do that, which is why the game is changing.


And that's their Choice

Quote:
e: ships that are profitable to gank, by the way, are usually gits hauling more cargo than the cost to gank their ship is worth. because they'd have been ganked anyway, they can be discounted when it comes to discussing players attacking ships for bounty.


There are plenty of ships that aren't worth ganking but would be with a bounty (like Mackinaws).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#83 - 2012-10-01 09:19:49 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
In other words, you're complaining that criminals will be in the exact same situation as suicide gank victims, never knowing who's going to attack them or when?

I'm trying to think of a reason not to say "Well suck it up then", but I can't.


Except that Suicide Gankers lose their ships. They get to say "Surprise" but it costs them their ship. People exercising kill rights do not lose anything.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#84 - 2012-10-01 09:27:09 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
In other words, you're complaining that criminals will be in the exact same situation as suicide gank victims, never knowing who's going to attack them or when?

I'm trying to think of a reason not to say "Well suck it up then", but I can't.


Except that Suicide Gankers lose their ships. They get to say "Surprise" but it costs them their ship. People exercising kill rights do not lose anything.



People with killrights against them have by definition committed an attack on someone else to have; they're not in the same position as Freddy The Freighter Alt here.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Herr Hammer Draken
#85 - 2012-10-01 09:52:20 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


What risk does the miner take in selling the killright? The ganker has the risk of being shot by the person who they ganked. The fact that people are too lazy to use those killrights is their choice.



Except that this risk is very manageable by the ganker. Check the age of the miner pilot. If he is young and flying a maxed out mining ship it is very unlikely that he will be able to exercise those kill rights to any degree that would make the ganker think twice. IE. A low skilled pilot with all his current skills in mining. This is what many players in eve do to get started in the game.
Yes they do work on PvP skills after they max out mining but it takes time. And that is a knowable resource that gankers use to their advantage. Being able to sell those kill rights gets around that built in obvious limit. Spreads the risk out a bit more and makes the young miner pilot less of a sitting duck than he is now.

At the moment the ganker that targets these young miners is taking little or no risk in doing so. And they have an endless supply of new miner pilots entering eve every day. Thus assurance of a way of life. The ganker can limit his risk very well doing this.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#86 - 2012-10-01 10:03:34 UTC

I'm actually feeling quite positive about this system.

I think there will be ways for "bad guys" to use it to cause plenty of tears from the naive carebears who cry every time something reduces their isk per hour output, however I also like the idea of bounty hunters being an actual legit job to have in EVE. Not just one of those jobs you do in theory but no-one actually does it.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#87 - 2012-10-01 10:15:37 UTC
I'm sorry Pipa, but you really are arguing the wrong corner here.

If gankers and pirates are worried about being attacked in hi-sec due to transferrable killrights then they should follow the same advice that is offered to potential suicide gank victims: fly cheap ships, situational awareness, bring friends, avoid danger spots, don't go AFK.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#88 - 2012-10-01 10:17:36 UTC
Alternatively, stop ganking and pirating if you're worried about people in ships more threatening than haulers and hulks shooting back at you.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#89 - 2012-10-01 10:20:39 UTC
I suppose a lot of that will also depend on who can buy those killrights. The bounty changes already sound like they're (slowly) introducing the whole concept of legal persons in EVE and giving them some of the same properties as individuals. Now imagine what would happen if a killright became a corp property…
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#90 - 2012-10-01 11:05:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
I suppose a lot of that will also depend on who can buy those killrights. The bounty changes already sound like they're (slowly) introducing the whole concept of legal persons in EVE and giving them some of the same properties as individuals. Now imagine what would happen if a killright became a corp property…



Corporations are people, my friend!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#91 - 2012-10-01 15:15:42 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
This seems to solve the alt problem. Someone can use an alt to kill the character with the bounty on its head, but the alt would never collect more than what the kill was worth. There's no longer any profit to be made.


Wait till you've collected enough bounties and manipulate EVE's market value calculation. So long as there are useless items that are effectively untraded, you can manipulate them quite cheaply then blow them up for profit a la FW FOREX.

What if they use just the hull value, and base the hull value on the mineral market value? Like insurance calculations? If the current insurance system could be manipulated, it would have been by now.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2012-10-01 17:43:56 UTC
Oh gee...I wonder where CCP got this idea from...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33413&p=5
Unknown why this thread was ever locked.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=80648&find=unread
The one I ported over to the Assembly Hall...also locked for unknown reasons.

I am sure it wasn't a new idea by any means but this one by Bienator II is the earliest I have seen of this particular idea.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#93 - 2012-10-01 18:25:16 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Unknown why this thread was ever locked.
2012.05.26. So not particularly unknown.

Quote:
The one I ported over to the Assembly Hall...also locked for unknown reasons.
2012.04.19. So for the same known reason.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2012-10-01 18:37:32 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:


Interestingly you could use this as a method to "pay" your frontline troopers in sov warefare. Place a 10bil bounty on the enemy and let your soldiers get paid for what they kill.


Now this is an idea I like.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Lunaleil Fournier
Perfusus Sanguine
Pandemic Horde
#95 - 2012-10-01 18:43:57 UTC
I'm really hoping bounty hunting requires some significant skill training so players can continue to have choices that define their character and gameplay. Skill training + the % payout based on value of ship/mods destroyed, should help prevent abuse of the system.

I'm excited that CCP are finally addressing Bounty Hunting. It's something a lot of players have wanted for a long time. And if CSM were the ones that convinced CCP to do bounty hunting in lieu of the player-to-player contract system CCP were originally going to do according to the CSM notes....they deserve a lot of credit because it's a much better choice for this expansion. Combined with crimewatch and the second wave of FW fixes, that's a pretty good expansion lineup.
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#96 - 2012-10-01 18:58:45 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2012/09/retribution-bounties.html

I've yet to see a bounty-like system implemented in any MMO that wasn't made pointless via exploits.


The reason is that the developers are trying to rely on a system of mechanical rules that are necessarily based on assumptions. This type of exploitation is no different than someone collecting money from insurance fraud.

Insurance is totally legal and the business follows defined rules based on necessary assumptions. However, when the fraudster causes an accident on purpose to collect on the payout their claim is scrutinized. In real life we have human beings looking at it and making a qualified judgment about the fairness of representing one thing to get the money but then doing another. This is the entire point of the claims process and judicial systems, an institution that ALL MMOs lack. If the real life insurance claims process was subject to simple mechanical loss/payout rules it would be rife with scamming as well.

To properly stop it, and other forms of exploits, MMO developers need to stop thinking that their only job is to program a game and start thinking that they are providing a service for the benefit of all users. They need a department that has employees whose job it is to enforce policy in a discrete and knowledgeable way.
5n4keyes
Sacred Templars
Fraternity.
#97 - 2012-10-01 20:40:13 UTC
I was lucky enougn to be at the meet in London where Retribution was announced, and was lucky enough to chat to some devs about this.

From what I understand, you can add a bounty to anyone, the bounty then goes into a collective pot. So lets say, we put money on CCP Soundwave, say 100m.

If CCP Soundwave was say, in a battleship, and was suicide ganked, had a good fight in 0.0 or a really bad time in a 1000v1000 fleet fight, when he dies a percentage of the ships value is taken from the Pot and given to the killer.

So killing CCP Soundwave in his battleship might get you say 10-20m. the pot would then drop to 90-80m.

This means the system cant really be exploited, as in order to get money from the pot you would need to spend 5 to 10 times that which your getting out.
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#98 - 2012-10-01 20:47:26 UTC
Could it be...... after all these years..... CCP is finally going to fix the broken bounty system?!

I'm starting to get very excited!

I knew keeping a list of all my most hated enemies would pay off in the end! Big smile

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Reticle
Sight Picture
#99 - 2012-10-01 21:17:11 UTC
The more I think about this new system, the more potential it looks like it has.

It indirectly deals with the issue of players corp hopping to avoid war decs. If you want someone bad enough, put a bounty on him directly.

In high sec you could put a bounty out that is equal to or greater than the cost of a suicide gank. It will provide an interesting tool to miners who want to grief the compettion. A disposable gank squad of 2 week old destroyer pilots is pretty darn cheap; just do the math for a mack kill and price the bounty accordingly. At the very least the gank could be free for the gankers, minus the sec status.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2012-10-01 21:20:44 UTC
Reticle wrote:
The more I think about this new system, the more potential it looks like it has.

It indirectly deals with the issue of players corp hopping to avoid war decs. If you want someone bad enough, put a bounty on him directly.

In high sec you could put a bounty out that is equal to or greater than the cost of a suicide gank. It will provide an interesting tool to miners who want to grief the compettion. A disposable gank squad of 2 week old destroyer pilots is pretty darn cheap; just do the math for a mack kill and price the bounty accordingly. At the very least the gank could be free for the gankers, minus the sec status.
Remember, bounties don't negate CONCORD. Depending on the payout percentage, it might still be uneconomical to gank Mackinaws, thus griefing the competition never comes to pass.