Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I guess missiles users will need some time to get used to TE/TC and their T2 ammo...

Not sure where this is going without further explanations about ships bonus changes but in fact, on paper, you have to look at it like this:

Currently your missiles have a very long delayed dmg application but extreme ranges that can go above 150km with Cerberus, this is silly.
It's even more silly because the paper dps you could apply with your missiles is not the true one because your target is moving and avoids at some point one part of the explosion radius thus less dps.
Adding much more base speed to missiles will make your dps application sooner at longer ranges and almost instant at close ranges, increasing speed impact and reducing explosion radius will increase your dps applied even if base dmg is 25% less.
In the end you should not loose much dps, loose range yes and this is good for the game now on top of these changes you need also to think about ship bonuses and this is where I'm really starting to believe you're not ready to see Tengus and Drakes be hangar queens, you should even expect to see a lot more missile ships once neglected become viable ships witch is good for the game.

Medium ships designed and fit for long range should be able to hit at 80kms. If this isn't possible it makes them pointless vs SR battleship and tier 3 BC fleets and other opponents.

The way I see it people will just go back to using sniper canes for everything especially if you are making it easier to fit arties, or better yet tier 3 BCs.

Basic BCs should be entry level fleet ships for new players, T1 cruisers should also be part of this as smaller faster versions for specialised work.

Having T1 LR weapons like rails and now missiles nerfed in range makes all ships designed to fit them pointless, we all know LR medium lasers are already terrible.. So medium arty ships is the only way to go then!

This is why we fly both drakes and canes in our fleets. The drakes do more damage at the far end of our range, and the canes use their speed to take care of ships that can close the gap. With some tackle and logi support we can take on fleets of ther ships that outnumber us.

That isn't to say that this fleet comp is over-powered either, just that in a certain set of range and position it is very effective. It takes a bit of skill for the FC to keep that arrangement and there are several fleet comps and tactics that can break it up.

I have flown the drake in PvP since about the time it was introduced. During that time people have gone from saying it was useless to claiming it was overpowered, while it has recieved a nerf to shield recharge rate and very few buffs.

From the arguments here, I have seen little on how the delay in damage application causes a decrease in effective dps on target. Also, if heavy missiles were so overpowerd, one would expect to see them used more in PvP. But other than on Drakes, you don't see them used much. And they are used on drakes because the drakes have the tank to stay on field long enough to apply their dps despite the delay from using missiles. I don't think this points to drakes being too powerful, just to missiles and other missile boats being too weak.

Even if heavy missiles do need a nerf, I think the proposed nerf goes the wrong way. Rather than the minimal buff to speed, I think it would be better, esepcially if damage is also nerfed, to nerf flight time even more, say 50%-60% and give a buff to flight speed so you get your 25% reduction to range.

I did this quickly in Pyfa:

EHP: 73,8k
Damage (dps/alpha): 399/2395 (no drones)
Range (in Pyfa): 115 km
Targeting range: 120 km

If you need speed replace one of the LSEs with named MWD.

[Drake, Drake fit]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Internal Force Field Array I

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
[Empty High slot]

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I


Warrior II x5


Zainou 'Gypsy' Electronics EE-605
Zainou 'Snapshot' Heavy Missiles HM-705
Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

You see this is why the Drake had to be nerfed (even if only indirectly through HMs) because all these supposed knowledgable Drake pilots posting their butthurt here couldn't even fathom how to construct a 100km + range one. They have got to be the most unimaginitive lot in the game. They've never had range considerations forced on them, or tradeoff considerations in general for that matter, and now they will. They will have to learn to be creative with fittings and sacrificing things they formerly couldn't see past like the brick tank or whatever, in order to make the ship perform in a specific desired way.

And the sad thing is even with these changes it will still be probably best in class by virtue of the resist bonus. But I'm going to dance the day that the ridiculous BC shield regen stat gets altered, even though that will only affect pve. The damn things have been imbalanced from the getgo. It has led a charmed life, while the Myrm's op'd original 125m3 bandwidth was overnerfed at warp speed.

Oh and someone's bound to say but but the regen time was already increased to 1400 from 1250. Yeah but at the same time it got purger rigs which essentially restored the regen tank to what it was. The regen on a BS is 2500, and a Cruiser 1250. Meanwhile the shield hp of a BC is much closer to a BS's than a Cruisers. So even if the regen was placed squarely between a BS and a Cruiser at 1875 it would still regen faster than the other two ships due to having the hp skewed toward a BS's. I doubt it will get nerfed to 1875, but there's plenty of room between 1400 and 1875.

Drake/Tengu/HML addicts have ever only needed these three things to just about everything in this game, and usually quite well and even easier than any other race or class of ships. That is being taken away. Adjust fellas. There are plenty of aspects to this game you will have to discover the same way people who haven't followed the easy route have been doing for years. Yeah, I know what I'm talking about because I built an empire alt specifically into that easy route myself. I'll be looking forward to a Nighthawk buff on that character, but I've also trained it into Gallente ships for the Domi since every character in this game should have two races trained. And on the off-chance that CCP finally fiures out how to fix Gallente "soon."

If you have read Fozzie's OP and followup posts I wouldn't be so sure of that.

It seems more likely that the kinetic bonus will be replaced with rof or maybe general damage bonus. The HM range nerf and forced fitting choices for range with these changes to TC and TE would just be undone if they gave the hull a range bonus.

I won't mind if they don't replace the resist bonus (afterall the prophesy may be keeping it's resist bonus even with rebalancing) as long as the skewed general BC shield regen time is nerfed.

But somewho forgot - missiles not do the instant damage. And their effiency loses with hight speed at ALL derections. When ship fly to you by line at hight speed - you dealt same damage. very LOW damage.
When others (exactly cannons) can blow it up by one volley.

Oh and here's a fun eft exercize for Drake addicts. Try getting a mwd, 7 heavy beam II, and an 800 plate onto the current Harbinger and having it even with falloff touching 100km. Since one of the recent posts I read did not seem to understand the grid penalty cost of range rigs for guns, and seemed to think the 80% range bonus with tech II ammo was all that. Also, try giving it some tank, and oh note your dps at that range. Have fun.

edit -
Thank you sir for your post. Just what I was looking for.

Ok instant damage means **** all for pve. In pvp if you are shooting at that range you probably are either a tier 3 BC with large guns but even if not either way you probably have dedicated tackle, whether that be a bubble or Huginn+Lacehsis combo or light throwaway tackle. In which case your delayed damage will not matter. And it will especially not matter if you are sitting with other missile boats.

As for the dps, you apparently are unaware of the wonderful lack of damage say between Aurora M and Scourge Fury. And also notice the alpha at that range between a Drake's 7 scourge fury and a Cane's 6 720mm Arty II with tremor. Look it up.

o/