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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Freighters: Time for change ?

First post
Author
Doddy
Excidium.
#61 - 2012-09-29 18:39:11 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
ISD Praetoxx wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
ISD Praetoxx wrote:
For moving very expensive items such as 100 plex or 70 capital blueprints at a time,

I know it's a joke, but don't move PLEX :(


No point in denying it. We have all seen the killmails. I run a support group for pilot's who have been affected by these losses.

Bonus points if anyone can link the killmail.

Linking killmails is against forum rules, it usually ends up locking the thread. You should Know the rules by now...


Think that was like 2007 or something.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-09-29 18:39:50 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Mocam wrote:

The only differences I'd like to see on it, again, is ganking showing those ships as PvP losses. KB's won't show that stuff and it's bunk that people can lose that many ships without those losses on their KB. The "rewards" from ganking include not showing failures and those should show.


Erm players not showing their losses on their killboard has nothing to do with CCP or the game. Players choose to set their killboard to not show losses to npcs and they would do that regardless if the api somehow flagged it as a "pvp" kill.


No. Losses where an NPC is the only one involved do not show, even via api uploads.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#63 - 2012-09-29 18:54:03 UTC
Hecate Shaw wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree here as there is quite a few things you can do to prevent it. The first & probably the most obvious is to make yourself unprofitable to gank. 95% of freighter suicide ganks happen because the pilot is making it a profitable venture.
Please re-read your response there...seriously, are freighter pilots supposed to take a loss every time they undock?
Of course not, and no-one is suggesting anything of the kind.

However, freighter pilots should expect to be targeted if they decide to carry more than their ships can protect — they are indeed pretty much supposed to take a loss every time they undock with a much too valuable cargo.

Freighters are difficult to gank, but if the pilot do everything they can to promote it rather than prevent it, then a quick death is an entirely suitable and correct product of this poor choice.
Zhang Xiaofei
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2012-09-29 18:55:34 UTC
Actually it IS time for a change.

The fact of the matter is that you cannot move a freigher safely through "high security" space.

There is no high securty about high security space, none what so ever. A freigher when not on autopilot is still EASILLY ganked before it can warp off a gate, easilly, and at near no cost to the gankers. (cost vs reward). I have all but completely stopped using freighers and jump freighters on my main and alts, the risk is just too great now.

Buffing the freighters beefiness is only one of the few steps that needs taken.
Secondly is to void any and all insurance when killed by concord. Up the price on ganking, make it less profitable (but still potentially profitable).
Greater security the higher sec rating the system has. Small sec hits for drone attacks as well.

Above are what I could think off might make a difference.


And actually taking less value per haul to make yuo undesirable IS taking a loss. There is no point in a freighter if you can't use it to freight goods. Then you may as well stick to t haulers.. guess what.. they also get snuffed, just as easilly even. So the argument that you make yourself undesirable is clearly proposed by someone clueless... I'd say nice effort, but let's be honest.. there was none.
Zhang Xiaofei
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2012-09-29 18:56:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Hecate Shaw wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree here as there is quite a few things you can do to prevent it. The first & probably the most obvious is to make yourself unprofitable to gank. 95% of freighter suicide ganks happen because the pilot is making it a profitable venture.
Please re-read your response there...seriously, are freighter pilots supposed to take a loss every time they undock?
Of course not, and no-one is suggesting anything of the kind.

However, freighter pilots should expect to be targeted if they decide to carry more than their ships can protect — they are indeed pretty much supposed to take a loss every time they undock with a much too valuable cargo.

Freighters are difficult to gank, but if the pilot do everything they can to promote it rather than prevent it, then a quick death is an entirely suitable and correct product of this poor choice.



They are not dificult to gank, by any stretch of the imagination. Get real son.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#66 - 2012-09-29 18:58:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Zhang Xiaofei wrote:
They are not dificult to gank, by any stretch of the imagination. Get real son.
They are among the most difficult ships to suicide gank that the game has to offer so no imagination-stretching is required.

Quote:
The fact of the matter is that you cannot move a freigher safely through "high security" space.
For one, yes you can. For another, that's working as intended. By the way, going by your list of things that need to be done, suicide ganking is right where it should be at the moment…

At any rate, using a freighter (and even more so a JF) is pretty much entirely risk free unless you actively choose to not make it so, mainly because of the high costs of ganking one.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#67 - 2012-09-29 19:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Zhang Xiaofei wrote:
They are not dificult to gank, by any stretch of the imagination. Get real son.


How many freighter ganks have you lined up in your 3 days of play? Since you're saying it's so easy, of course.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#68 - 2012-09-29 19:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Doc Severide wrote:
Cameron Cahill wrote:
Kult Altol wrote:
Here come all the trolls defending their low life style. Also the experts in game play with their nearly flawless play style. People don't want to admit something is inherently flawed.


D'awwww someone loose a ship?

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo....

Please spell lose as lose and not loose which is describing my sister...


WTM your sister, I'm actually shocked that I'm the first, or do the others know something I don't?

OP this subject is so last week, there's a huge thread about the ins and outs of ganking freighters and the common consensus of opinion is

Don't AFK
Don't carry billions in your hold
Take the long way round choke points
Use scouts
Use Red Frog or PushX, you then get paid if they lose your load
Use your brain

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#69 - 2012-09-29 19:17:42 UTC
Zhang Xiaofei wrote:
Secondly is to void any and all insurance when killed by concord. Up the price on ganking, make it less profitable (but still potentially profitable).


HAHAHAHA. This has to be a troll. There is no way this could be a serious post.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2012-09-29 19:19:18 UTC
Zhang Xiaofei wrote:
Secondly is to void any and all insurance when killed by concord. Up the price on ganking, make it less profitable (but still potentially profitable).


Oh man wait you're saying that freighter ganks are easy to pull off and you seem to think that ships used in suicide ganks still get insurance payouts

Something tells me that you shouldn't be making claims like "suicide ganking is too easy" when you seem to have missed that one crucial fact

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#71 - 2012-09-29 19:45:14 UTC
Zhang Xiaofei wrote:

Secondly is to void any and all insurance when killed by concord. Up the price on ganking, make it less profitable (but still potentially profitable).



So now that you've irrevocably trashed your credibility, why don't you just come out with what's really bothering you.

Is it a girl? Can't get her to notice you?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#72 - 2012-09-29 19:51:41 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Zhang Xiaofei wrote:
Secondly is to void any and all insurance when killed by concord. Up the price on ganking, make it less profitable (but still potentially profitable).


HAHAHAHA. This has to be a troll. There is no way this could be a serious post.

I laughed too........
psycho freak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2012-09-29 19:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Praetoxx
Content Removed

Do not post if you have nothing constructive to add to the thread.
- ISD Praetoxx

my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k

nop cant find it

Hecate Shaw
United Freemerchants Society
#74 - 2012-09-29 20:50:49 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Hecate Shaw wrote:
Please re-read your response there...seriously, are freighter pilots supposed to take a loss every time they undock? I mean, you're right in one respect, that there are built-in ways to avoid a gank (NO AUTOPILOT!), but don't you think telling them to lose ISK in order to avoid a ganking is a little unreasonable?


Not at all. It's a concept that many freighter pilots understand & actively implement to avoid being picked as a target. Making yourself unprofitable to gank is not taking a loss. Making yourself profitable to gank is the loss. Read the text at the bottom for a more detailed real life comparison (I'm not generally a big advocate on those, but quite a bit of it can be applied here).


Hecate Shaw wrote:
Personally, I think freighters should have a longer cloak timer, or be covered for part of the time it takes them to align, just so they aren't QUITE so much of a sitting duck.


Having a longer cloak timer wouldn't help one bit, it just means the gankers have to wait longer before the target uncloaks.
Being covered for some alignment time would mean everyone piloting ships would also want this. Freighters are big ships & have a high mass which accounts for the larger alignment time. People choose to pilot freighters for various reasons & they all need to accept that their ship choice comes with many downsides.

Hecate Shaw wrote:
As for your suggestion of altering routes - that only works so far. Be honest, now, how many freighters have you guys ganked were ones you scouted on previous days, recorded their route, and set up an ambush specifically for them? How many were targets of opportunity along highsec choke points that dip into lower security ratings (Niarja, to name one) that you caught while they tried to align for the next gate? No judgement, honestly curious. If the former, then more power to you, and the freighter pilots need to HTFU. If the latter, maybe there is some merit to the complaint, eh?


I haven't personally been involved in any of the freighter ganks so I can't honestly give you an answer on those statistics (and out of habit, I wouldn't anyway). What I can tell you comes from personal experience in my real life profession. The company I worked for 8 years ago was heavily involved in armoured vehicle cash (and other things) escorts. We had certain runs that had to be completed on certain days. For each individual run, we'd have several routes set out that we could take which were chosen at random by the driver. The vehicles themselves are also built to make a potential attack or robbery (you guessed it) unprofitable. If you can't get inside the vehicle to begin with, then you're losing money.

This is the standard proceedure for that type of work for a reason; It works. One out of 10, 20 or more routes is chosen at random, on the spot by the driver. When one of these is attacked or robbed, 99% of the time it is attributed to an inside job, ironically, the driver since he's the only person that knows which way you're going. Now when you use this type of method, the gankers in this case would need to use other methods to gank you, but often by that stage it has become unprofitable to do so (in EVE) especially when someone else is already on their way on autopilot completely ovlivious to what's happening around him.

Now while there may not be 10,20 or more different routes you can take in EVE, there is always more than 1. Even if both routes have a ganker presence, there is still another way around which I briefly touched on in an earlier post.
Can't believe I'm going to agree with a Goon (Blink), but I'll concede all points but the number of routes available, and after perusing a few freighter killmails I see what you mean about the cargo people choose.
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#75 - 2012-09-29 23:30:18 UTC
Moved from General Discussion.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2012-09-29 23:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Andski wrote:
Hey OP do you realize why they spend 1b in ships to suicide gank your freighter?



I think a reason why people cry so mcuh about it is they do not understand the cost of teh gank becasue all they see is thier loss mail. They don't see the 1bill loss on teh ganker side.

I'd like to know what the passed to ganked freighter ratio in those system tbh. People seem tot hink most if not all freighter passing in those gets blow-up but I am pretty sure it's not the case.

EDIT : Also didn't we just get a 25 pages thread about this?
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-09-30 00:14:37 UTC
Newsflash wrote:
Currently freighters are way too easy to suicidegank and there is nothing pilot can do to prevent it.

It does not require many ships to succesfully suicide freighter and because suicideganking is one aspect of this game give freighters much much more HP so atleast gankers need to bring in team of 40-50 ships to achieve their goal.

Right now its just laughably easily done with even under 10 BC for example.


erm dont carry more than a bill and a half in in frighters ideally carry under the bill and the chances of you getting ganked reduces.

simply put if you cargo is worth more than the ships to gank you then your getting ganked simple.
Furry Commander
Furry Armada
#78 - 2012-09-30 00:17:40 UTC
I have a way better idea. rebalance/change freighters however you would like, just let us fit them with modules. I fly an orca alost exclusively simply because freghters are giant boring bricks to fly. i would like to click buttons and activat things in my freighter please. i like flying dangerously in my big expensive haulers and i can't do that in an intelligent fashion if i can't fit defenses to a ship...
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-09-30 01:54:56 UTC
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Moved from General Discussion.


Ok, now that is a troll.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2012-09-30 10:59:23 UTC
Hecate Shaw wrote:

As for your suggestion of altering routes - that only works so far. Be honest, now, how many freighters have you guys ganked were ones you scouted on previous days, recorded their route, and set up an ambush specifically for them?


Lol, ask them how many times they didn't set up an ambush for a specific freighter pilot, killed some autopiloting 25b isk freighter anyway, and then killed the exact same person again some hours later doing the exact same thing.

People are ****ing stupid. There's no reason to balance the game around the incredible stupidity of a talented few.