Player Features and Ideas Discussion

There is no variable range, just a range that may not be expended in a linear fashion due to travel time and moving targets. As such a missile may run out of travel time before reaching a target that appears to be within "range," but such is the nature of a weapon that actually travels. It's very unlike falloff as falloff reduces damage directly and increases the chances of a miss. Missile flight time is pretty boolean. It hits in time or it doesn't. Damage isn't reduced because it flew for 6 seconds instead of 5.

You're so full of ****. Fozzie has responded plenty in this thread. But I don't blame him for not responding lately. Just the same tired old flawed comparisons, whines, and sometimes obvious lack of reading even the whole op, coming from people who can't get past their addiction to HMLs for the last 50 or so pages. Comparisons and whines already addressed and debunked.

Also, you've been posting a lot. Unfortunately I'm still getting the following (with plenty of time on refreshing it) for you on eve-kill:

"If you see no data, a cronjob has been submitted to calculate your monthly values. Please come back in a few minutes.
Thank you for your patience"

Do you have any pvp experience? You've been playing this game almost 5 years and you have no pvp entries at all. Is all the butthurt you are posting seriously just about losing the current HML stats for pve?

They can fly a battleship like everyone else. Ever tried to do 4's in an artillery Hurricane or beam Harbinger? How about a Loki or Proteus?

Yet with both it's the base attributes of the weapon that makes them a feasible choice. I can get similar levels of tank and superior DPS from a proteus or legion but the range makes them much less ideal as all that DPS is lost to travel time. The systems even have similar bonuses on the other hulls but only the tengu ends up really standing out.
Yes, the lack of a damage bonus other than the role bonus and torp drawbacks hurt it there but here's hoping that this change can help that issue in one regard.

Edit: Infact, Minmatar mission ships are currently drawing their efficiency from damage selection, which missiles have better, being able to efficiently use a sort range weapons system win conjunction with range and damage application help, which is what torps in particular have issues with and few fitting options to improve. Some attributes can't even be improved though rigs. This change would give them that.
I would gladly take this new missile and drone beast, but I doubt it will happen.

The only reason the golem would be able to fit tcs is because of the tank bonus while the raven and navy raven are so bad with cap and tank that you can't really risk any slots for efficiency without starting to fit faction and pirate mods.
However, most turret boats can retain decent efficiency with a t2 fit and become more effective with faction and pirate mods.

The closest we get to being on par with turret boats is with the scorpion navy, and this is only due to 8 mid slots allowing for tank and target painters/ tcs after expac. However, it has sub par dps and isnt compensated through other means such as tanking ability or something else.

Bs class missile boats seriously need some balancing.

Well, for me the point is - if after this patch Caldari will have

a) one or more viable, competitive missile DPS-combat tech 1 hulls above frig size

b) one or more viable, competitive missile DPS PvE tech 1 hulls for l4s (viable - tanks like the best tech 1s of the other races and gets killspeeds like the best tier 1s of other races)

c) CMs, Torps and HAMs which are in line with ACs and Arty in those sizes, and HML which are in line with medium Arty

d) a competitive Drake which is not 4th of 4 tier 2s in short range (as it is now) and 4th of 4 in long range (which it would be, if those changes would go through) but either top in one and last in other (as it is now), or on par with both

then I will not complain...

As far as I can see, we will have none of the above, when we should in fact have all of them. Let me point this out:

for a) we have atm the Drake (and to a lesser degree the Tengu, although its not tech 1), for b) we have cheap Drake, a bit more expensive NH and most expensive Tengu. Tengu is a great mission runner, if kinetic damage is the one of choice, and performs a fair bit worse with other enemies. Its behind top mission ships, which are pirate faction though except Vargur (and in some cases Paladin). Make the Golem on par with the Vargur and I wont complain about that specific loss, but for others it might suck.

for c) we have HML which are a bit OP (although in real game much less OP than paper stats might let you believe) and for d) we have the situation as described. Drake is OP only in nullsec, in all other things its pretty balanced in its class.

If those changes come true, you will see every little bit of whats there will be gone, and its not certain when the changes for good will come. For myself I see no reason why this should be OK, and as I see with all those reactions there are many others who feel the same. Bring us in line, ok, but the result should also be, that there are not 11 Winmatar ships in top 20 list, and just 1 (!) missile system in top dealer list. out of 20 there should be 4 of each race and 4 pirate ships. And in weapons it should be similar too. Else it is simply not balanced. And seriously, to those who say "crosstrain" - all of you had plenty of time to adapt to what you call OP. Still I dont see Drakes only in PvP in lowsec or in highsec, why is that? Because you refuse to learn? Or maybe just because the Drake simply is NOT OP in this environment? I never got an answer to this other than "but in nullsec" ... and I really dont wonder why ...

short resume - if Caldari are in line after this patch in a way they are balanced for PvE and PvP with missile tech 1 hulls, then I am fine. If not then I am not. My concerns are it will end up with option 2... now do some work Devs, and dont hesitate to ask those who know about missile ships, should be easy for you to find them.

best regards

PS: Icing on the cake would be, to get a missile-Machariel though, a fast ship with really strong short range weapons which shoot to long range without losing too much DPS ... and no, I dont see why you shouldnt do that. You did if for gunnery too, and left it in the game for ages.

Why is it OP if the Golem can do what the Vargur can? That would mean the Vargur is OP then, right? :) I think it would be balance, if Caldari could do with missiles what Winmatar can do atm with projectiles . But yeah, as Winmatar it maybe feels wrong when others have the same like you have.

I didnt say you need to be able to hit to 70km with Rage Torps. All I want is this: Rage Torps work as fine as ACs do in Machariel and Vargur with high damage ammo, pricetag of Torps ISK/damage should be same as with ACs, i.e. if you deal a specific ammount of damage with one weapon system you dont burn more or less money than with the other, and on the ammount of damage is similar in similar ranges. Ofc I know this means AC have to deal a little bit more in 5km, but then again they will also deal a bit less in 45km. For the far falloff range Javelins should be able to do similar damage like ACs too. So, how is this unbalanced? Winmatar can do it, why should Caldari be NOT able to do it?

I didnt even come to that point of speed of ships, and also not to the application of damage to smaller targets ... nor flight time. But your reaction is unmasking indeed - how can that Caldari scum expect to have a fine working system as ours?

Btw about your point of how much a Vargur or Machariel is doing at 70 .. I know, I have them both. And yes, its a fair bit less than what the high EFT numbers make you believe. Still, esp. the Mach can cover distances so fast it will be inside its envelope of doom in a few seconds. Something the Golem cant ...

Haha ! What a joke : people who have not read the thread complain about CCP not reading ! Crazy ! But the best part is when you realize that *nothing* have been said which don't have been answered before the page 70...

100 of pages just because people haven't read... And now people are complaining about the best tool to fool a poor AI and call this balance...

Because you're asking a bit too much:
- Speed of Mach
- 1100+ dps at 70 km (just for comparison: Nightmare can do this only at 50 km)
- Instantly hitting missiles
- Vargur's tank
- Apoc's capacitor