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Ideal numbers for L4's
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Neoshark
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-10-15 04:56:13 UTC
I'm trying to move up from Amarr level 3's to level 4's. But before I do I'd like to know what kind of dps I'll need to deal and tank. What is the minimum dps required to complete 4s; what is the "ideal" dps to complete them in a timely manner; and how much dps does it take to breeze through 4's?
Alaik
Lucifer's Hammer
A Band Apart.
#2 - 2011-10-15 05:02:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Alaik
The missions vary quite a bit. You can get away with a very small tank if you have insane gank, and likewise, you can have the bare minimum DPS and still complete missions eventually.

I would guess that 350 DPS tanked (not cap stable, just pulsing repper) and an outgoing DPS of 350+ would be fine to complete level 4 missions. I think those are the numbers that are "adequate". Someone with a better memory can probably adjust those numbers. =)

Also, make sure you look up the new missions in a guide, otherwise you may find yourself caught by scramblers with more incoming DPS than you can handle.
Neoshark
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-10-15 05:12:41 UTC
Yeah, I'm really just looking for some general numbers so I can get my feet wet. It's still going to be a bit before I can get into them, so I'm doing a little prep work atm.
Alaik
Lucifer's Hammer
A Band Apart.
#4 - 2011-10-15 05:15:44 UTC
Which ship are you intending to use in your level 4 missions?
Neoshark
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2011-10-15 05:22:49 UTC
I don't have T2 pulses so I was considering a beam fit geddon. I've only recently started cross training into Amarr so my gunnery skills aren't very good. That is the main reason I'm inquiring about dps numbers for L4's.
Novah Soul
#6 - 2011-10-15 06:02:20 UTC
General rule of thumb that I've seen pop up on various occasions is that gank + tank should be approximately 1000 at a minimum to be relatively safe. It's a trade off, but the lower your tank the more careful you will need to be with aggro management.

Ex: I'm a 10 month old toon and can fit an Apoc with a 350 dps tank against sansha and do 640 dps, so I am right there on the borderline.

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2011-10-15 12:04:59 UTC
Novah Soul wrote:
General rule of thumb that I've seen pop up on various occasions is that gank + tank should be approximately 1000 at a minimum to be relatively safe. It's a trade off, but the lower your tank the more careful you will need to be with aggro management.

Ex: I'm a 10 month old toon and can fit an Apoc with a 350 dps tank against sansha and do 640 dps, so I am right there on the borderline.


imho, that's more like a good "average" missioner point, I know you can do L4's with a drake with 270 DPS and a 400 DPS tank.

I'd say, for minimum stats needed to run 4's, you'll want about 260-270+ DPS and a good 350-450 DPS tank
5 Senses In A Person... 4 Seasons In A Year... 3 Colors In A Stoplight... 2 Poles On The Earth... ONLY 1-UP MUSHROOM!!!  If You Like My Sig, Like Me!   Remember EVE is EVErything!
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#8 - 2011-10-16 01:56:46 UTC
Neoshark wrote:
I don't have T2 pulses so I was considering a beam fit geddon. I've only recently started cross training into Amarr so my gunnery skills aren't very good. That is the main reason I'm inquiring about dps numbers for L4's.


I'd skip the geddon and go for an Apoc. But that's just me.

The tank+gank of 1000 is pretty safe. You can get away with less but might run in to trouble on specific missions.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-10-16 01:59:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Zhilia Mann wrote:
The tank+gank of 1000 is pretty safe.


This. Just remember that gank means applied DPS, not just what EFT spits out in the damage column. I.e. your 900 DPS Brutix is going to have issues with only a 100 DPS tank.
Gavin DeVries
JDI Industries
#10 - 2011-10-16 02:53:51 UTC
Another supporter of the 1000 total rule of thumb. Once you get some experience in those missions you'll feel more at ease. There are some that require almost no tank at all, and there are some that if you screw it up and shoot/do the wrong thing, you're in deep trouble even with a strong tank.

PVP is a question with no single right answer, but a lot of wrong ones.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#11 - 2011-10-16 05:09:54 UTC
For Amarr level V thoughs cap skills get tech 2 lights your going to need them on a BS and level 4 all support and main skills then you should be safe to ride the level 4 train.Big smile

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Lili Lu
#12 - 2011-10-17 01:54:17 UTC
Neoshark wrote:
I don't have T2 pulses so I was considering a beam fit geddon. I've only recently started cross training into Amarr so my gunnery skills aren't very good. That is the main reason I'm inquiring about dps numbers for L4's.


If you have a geddon it will be ok. I used to fit mine with meta 4 "modulated" dual heavy beams and had a set of each type of crystals to address different ranges on the rats. You won't do much with radio but it can snipe out the scrambling frigs. Then kill the cruisers with midrange ammo, and then when the BSs get close hit them with x-ray, gamma, or multifreq. You can put a painter in one of the mids to help get the frigs killed at range.

With two or three heat sinks the dual heavy beams have a great rate of fire. In your 8 high put a drone link and you can send hammerhead IIs onto your primaries. So, it works. As your skills get better and you get large pulse and beam spec for tech II you could move away from the geddon. But now that I have tech II sentrys as well I still like to pull out the geddon for some missions. Don't use heavy drones. They move so slowly you will get no practical gain from their increased damage.
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2011-10-17 02:49:28 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:

If you have a geddon it will be ok. I used to fit mine with meta 4 "modulated" dual heavy beams and had a set of each type of crystals to address different ranges on the rats. You won't do much with radio but it can snipe out the scrambling frigs. Then kill the cruisers with midrange ammo, and then when the BSs get close hit them with x-ray, gamma, or multifreq. You can put a painter in one of the mids to help get the frigs killed at range.

With two or three heat sinks the dual heavy beams have a great rate of fire. In your 8 high put a drone link and you can send hammerhead IIs onto your primaries. So, it works. As your skills get better and you get large pulse and beam spec for tech II you could move away from the geddon. But now that I have tech II sentrys as well I still like to pull out the geddon for some missions. Don't use heavy drones. They move so slowly you will get no practical gain from their increased damage.


I used a dual rep apoc with pulses, but meta 4 mega beams will fare better for dps
also, get T2 light drones, and T2 mediums, there are too many elite frigates and cruisers that will laugh off T1 drones and those same elite frigs and cruisers will be the ones webbing/scramming/tracking disruption you to death causing ALOT of damage

if you arent confident of your skills, fit pulses and tracking computer w/ tracking scripts and run some lvl 3s and see how the tank/gank goes. generally speaking, lvl 4 missions "engagement range" vary from 5km to 100km, you will have a hard time killing something at 50+ KM with pulses, and you will also have a hard time killing something at 5 KM with beams. so the most important thing is fitting correctly for the mission
Theodoric Darkwind
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-10-17 05:41:20 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Neoshark wrote:
I don't have T2 pulses so I was considering a beam fit geddon. I've only recently started cross training into Amarr so my gunnery skills aren't very good. That is the main reason I'm inquiring about dps numbers for L4's.


I'd skip the geddon and go for an Apoc. But that's just me.

The tank+gank of 1000 is pretty safe. You can get away with less but might run in to trouble on specific missions.


Pulse apoc with T2 tank will do L4s just fine. You can do L4s just fine with T1 pulses while you are training up for T2 pulses. Single repper tank works (as long as you're running 4 hardeners) just be careful with triggers. Just make sure you are cap stable at least with the AB off.

If you want to not decline angel missions then train up large projectiles and keep a set of 800 autocannons around and a second repper and run dual rep autocannon fit for angels if you dont feel like cross training minmatar.
iNFoRMaLiTY11
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2011-10-17 06:37:13 UTC
All good advices here, id add:

Go for abaddon and beams until you have T2 pulses imho. The apoc has less powergrid and makes fitting without advanced weapon uprgrades doable but you might have to downsize the weapons from mega pulses to duals or the like.

Abaddon has enough powergrid to fit almost full rack of mega beams. Just 1 empty high slot. Fill it with drone link so you can postpone the electronic drone warfare interfacing skill. The mega beams will let you do 300+ dps to 50km easily which is the most average range for sansha/blood raiders which you will meet the most missioning in amarr. With ultraviolets the fit should be cap stale until you learn to pulse the repper.

[Abaddon, NoT2Pulsefit]
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Ultraviolet L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Ultraviolet L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Ultraviolet L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Ultraviolet L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Ultraviolet L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Ultraviolet L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Ultraviolet L
[empty high slot]

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Switch hardeners according to enemy you face. Skill in order: capacitor skills to max (elite capacitor certificate under core category is very good basis, add controlled bursts to that). Train T2 pulses the minute you can. Scorch crystals will give you ~45ish range with 500+ dps at low gunnery skills but once you fit T2 pulses the fit is no longer cap stable and you must learn to pulse the repper. In time youll become good at it and then swap 1 cap recharger for tracking computer, drop 1 hardener for another heat sink and have a 4 slot tank going. Something in the lines of:

[Abaddon, PulseSansha]
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hammerhead II x5

That fit will give you mission specific (correct hardeners) 480ish tank with 889 dps with all skills at V. With all at V your cap will last 3 something minutes if everything is running nonstop and the pulses have 50km range which is awesome for missioning in amarr. At this point i would recommend either looking into Paladin or if you really want some pimping can be done to the ship. Only modules i would recommend to pimp the ship with are imperial navy heat sinks. Forget the rest, not worth it. The rest of pimping i would do are implants CC8 and CR8 which gives better capacitor recharge and overall cap size which increases cap regeneration. And turret implants G2-Beta (turret cap reduction), CX-2 (all turret damage), G2-Epsilon (large energy turret damage). With the implants + navy heat sinks at all skills V the fit is 1010 dps with 480 ish pulsed mission specific tank. That ship will tear through most amarr region missions with only hard ones being missions against angels. Though as the implants total would cost almost a billion id say your money is better spent first getting Paladin and also ignore people who tell you to use beams on paladin, missioning in amarr space with scorch + pulses will win the day, every day and twice on sunday.
Umamasyean
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-10-17 08:52:05 UTC
I think the most important thing to do is the match damage-type and resist-type to the specific mission RATs. So what you can do is try to outfit the best ship you can get with skills (and insurance) and dip into a little by little and then you can tell if it's doable and how long it will take. Be sure to be able to take out frigates first in case of warp scramble and you need to warp away.
Umamasyean
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-10-17 08:55:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Umamasyean
Umamasyean wrote:
I think the most important thing to do is the match damage-type and resist-type to the specific mission RATs. So what you can do is try to outfit the best ship you can get with skills (and insurance) and dip into a little by little and then you can tell if it's doable and how long it will take. Be sure to be able to take out frigates first in case of warp scramble and you need to warp away.


Oh, and if you have to choose between "tank and gank", go for tank first to be safe...and then you can modify it as necessary. Personally I find Tank to be more important because there's only so much gank you can do when there are like 30 RATs. And the High DPS battleships are the ones that deal the most damage while being longest to kill.

And try not to kill the "spawn trigger" to bring in a wave that's too much to handle.
Corrinus Amarras
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#18 - 2011-10-17 11:15:18 UTC
iNFoRMaLiTY11 wrote:
All good advices here, id add:

Go for abaddon and beams until you have T2 pulses imho. The apoc has less powergrid and makes fitting without advanced weapon uprgrades doable but you might have to downsize the weapons from mega pulses to duals or the like.

Abaddon has enough powergrid to fit almost full rack of mega beams. Just 1 empty high slot. Fill it with drone link so you can postpone the electronic drone warfare interfacing skill. The mega beams will let you do 300+ dps to 50km easily which is the most average range for sansha/blood raiders which you will meet the most missioning in amarr. With ultraviolets the fit should be cap stale until you learn to pulse the repper.

[Abaddon, NoT2Pulsefit]
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Ultraviolet L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Ultraviolet L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Ultraviolet L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Ultraviolet L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Ultraviolet L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Ultraviolet L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Ultraviolet L
[empty high slot]

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Switch hardeners according to enemy you face. Skill in order: capacitor skills to max (elite capacitor certificate under core category is very good basis, add controlled bursts to that). Train T2 pulses the minute you can. Scorch crystals will give you ~45ish range with 500+ dps at low gunnery skills but once you fit T2 pulses the fit is no longer cap stable and you must learn to pulse the repper. In time youll become good at it and then swap 1 cap recharger for tracking computer, drop 1 hardener for another heat sink and have a 4 slot tank going. Something in the lines of:

[Abaddon, PulseSansha]
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hammerhead II x5

That fit will give you mission specific (correct hardeners) 480ish tank with 889 dps with all skills at V. With all at V your cap will last 3 something minutes if everything is running nonstop and the pulses have 50km range which is awesome for missioning in amarr. At this point i would recommend either looking into Paladin or if you really want some pimping can be done to the ship. Only modules i would recommend to pimp the ship with are imperial navy heat sinks. Forget the rest, not worth it. The rest of pimping i would do are implants CC8 and CR8 which gives better capacitor recharge and overall cap size which increases cap regeneration. And turret implants G2-Beta (turret cap reduction), CX-2 (all turret damage), G2-Epsilon (large energy turret damage). With the implants + navy heat sinks at all skills V the fit is 1010 dps with 480 ish pulsed mission specific tank. That ship will tear through most amarr region missions with only hard ones being missions against angels. Though as the implants total would cost almost a billion id say your money is better spent first getting Paladin and also ignore people who tell you to use beams on paladin, missioning in amarr space with scorch + pulses will win the day, every day and twice on sunday.


this man has the right idea
Airu Naari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#19 - 2011-10-17 13:10:56 UTC
Just wanted to point out that a Navy Geddon (as the OP said he uses a regular one) is extremely efficient and I loved using it for L4s. It had not such a great tank, but awesome dps (1000+ dps with drones) and the ship is quite cheap now.

IN many cases, it is far more important to know what to do in a mission than how much tank you have. If you have low SP, bad tracking and beams fit, and you get webbed and scrambled and have no drones to kill the frigs - you will either die or wait an eternity to kill them. So use a website like http://eve-survival.org until you get a hang of it.

P.S. it's worth investing in faction mods and training specializations to V.