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Wasted space
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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#361 - 2012-09-28 22:41:05 UTC
So we've gone from "waah nobody's using all these systems" to "I want to shoot paperthin POSes" to "I want to **** enemy fleets in MY POS".

At least you're consistent.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#362 - 2012-09-28 22:47:24 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:

No matter what you do though, the attackers can just bring more DPS and logi, while you are still stuck with the limits of your 1 POS.

CCP did have some ideas about letting you anchor a POS elsewhere, and with other POSes near by. So maybe someday your small players could group POSes to counter growing POS shot fleets.


Extra DPS and extra logi is relative though isn't it? Agreed, you can't stop the train don't matter what you do. But if you add motivation for staging a tower and motivation to remove the tower, make it painful for both parties.

atm it's just a turkey shoot. And yes, a POS "grid" could be an interesting development. Again, the train but meh. I'm not going to start asking for _maxsize fleets.

Quote:

What was the deal with 50mil/character/month? That's not a bad deal to just be left alone, and if being blue extended any other opportunities or services it could have been the foot in the door to a better situation. If you just had 2 characters, the minimum to jump your stuff around, you could mine or rat up that kind of isk on 1 weekend afternoon and then been free to play around the rest of the month.

No. The fee wasn't the problem. The fact that I had to pay someone for space they did NOT own didn't sit with me. It was lowsec. It's a matter of idealogy. I thought I made that quite clear.

Quote:

Really, it seems like most of your problems are of your own choice. Your corpmates who didn't want to rent, and then you blowing off a perfectly reasonable chance to get in as a renter. You want to play in an area famed for large fleets, but don't want to be in large fleets.

Really, why are you playing a massively multiplayer game when you seem to have trouble making, keeping, and working with friends? Why keep playing a game that is big on the sandbox and metagaming, and then get into a rut of strictly real time strategy thinking?

No, no, no. You got me wrong. I'm NOT complaining about anything and if the mechanics of 0.0/lowsec etc. stay in stasis it wouldn't bother me. I'll just do whatever I gotta do to enjoy the game. Always have.

And I didn't blow off becoming a renter. It's cos nobody else wanted to be. I accepted that and left (the CONDITION of joining the alliance was to move to null once we had the numbers - when it came time to TRY, they balked).

Regardless of your attempt at reducing my self-esteem, there is no harm in suggesting additional options to make Eve MORE fun - and to be honest, I'm keen to see it become more interesting for smaller groups.

The "massive" in MMORG doesn't mean you have to BE MASSIVE to play it.

The MASSIVE means EVERYONE. Seems only a few people realise that.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#363 - 2012-09-28 22:51:12 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
So we've gone from "waah nobody's using all these systems" to "I want to shoot paperthin POSes" to "I want to **** enemy fleets in MY POS".

At least you're consistent.

ditto.

You've never got past itemizing indivdual points and make an effort to encompass the whole. But meh.

Some people simply can't think holistically.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#364 - 2012-09-28 22:59:45 UTC
Let's have a look at the arguments here, so far.

You want nullsec space to be utilized. Your solution: make POSes killable in one sitting. My solution: make nullsec space worth using over hisec.

You want small alliances to be able to carve out space by making the bigger alliances contract. Your solution: make POSes killable in one sitting. My solution: make nullsec space more valuable and make SOV less of a waterfall style process.

And now you suddenly want POSes to be very deadly so that one man can defeat a medium sized fleet or something, I dunno.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#365 - 2012-09-28 23:01:56 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:

No. The fee wasn't the problem. The fact that I had to pay someone for space they did NOT own didn't sit with me. It was lowsec. It's a matter of idealogy. I thought I made that quite clear.



You made it clear that you were sort of morally opposed to it, but those again are _your_ morals hampering you. You could have paid the extortion and kept on doing business.

And who is to say they don't own the space. I mean, a lot of your reasoning earlier about wasted space was that the owners couldn't really defend it all so they shouldn't be able to say they own it. Since the lowec corp certainly had the power and the will to kick you out, there most certainly "owned" the system by your own standards. They patrolled it enough to find you and had the organization to evict you after all.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#366 - 2012-09-28 23:33:57 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Let's have a look at the arguments here, so far.

You want nullsec space to be utilized. Your solution: make POSes killable in one sitting. My solution: make nullsec space worth using over hisec.

You want small alliances to be able to carve out space by making the bigger alliances contract. Your solution: make POSes killable in one sitting. My solution: make nullsec space more valuable and make SOV less of a waterfall style process.


Hey wait a minute. Stop shitting on the thread with this singular topic shredding.

Yes. POS's MUST be VERY VULNERABLE while they PRODUCE.

and again in case you misssed it.

Yes. POS's MUST be VERY VULNERABLE while they PRODUCE.

Quote:
And now you suddenly want POSes to be very deadly


I've ALWAYS said this too.

While they are NOT producing they ARE deadly. VERY deadly.

Got that. VERY deadly.

WHILE they are not producing.

I've ALSO stated that it may/may not have sov ramifications. Ideas were put forward as to why it MIGHT.


The debate is on the POTENTIAL it MAY have or MAY NOT have to fixing dead, empty 0.0 space.

YOUR ideas might work too - I am fine with that. So be daring and COMBINE the ideas and discuss the merits/problems.

And really. All this crap that it's a Goons shoot is moot. Goons can kill everybody, anywhere, anytime REGARDLESS of what's done.

That's why this is self-evidently NOT about the Goons. Never was. But, meh, whatever floats your boat.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#367 - 2012-09-29 00:07:15 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:


The bit that irked me, they didn''t want the moon it was on and I only mined and ratted and kept a low profile. To stay, I was given the opportunity to pay 50m per char per month to blue up but you know, extortion bothers me so I told ém no.

I'll repeat that. Extortion bothers me. Unused space. I want to use. I gotta pay. Or die.



So I was correct several posts ago.

You would start a one man corp, drop a PoS, it would get blown up, and now you're mad.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#368 - 2012-09-29 00:09:58 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
So be daring and COMBINE the ideas and discuss the merits/problems.

No. Your ideas for POSes are horrible for reasons I've detailed multiple times, and it gets worse when you extend that to sov structures.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#369 - 2012-09-29 00:13:51 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:


The bit that irked me, they didn''t want the moon it was on and I only mined and ratted and kept a low profile. To stay, I was given the opportunity to pay 50m per char per month to blue up but you know, extortion bothers me so I told ém no.

I'll repeat that. Extortion bothers me. Unused space. I want to use. I gotta pay. Or die.



So I was correct several posts ago.

You would start a one man corp, drop a PoS, it would get blown up, and now you're mad.

No. Went and put another one up about a month later just to **** 'em off.

Had an absolute ball getting the guys to log in en masse and drop cynos everywhere to scare the bejesus out of the dreads and triage. Couldn't fight 'em, knew that, but by hell we had some laughs.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#370 - 2012-09-29 00:18:09 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Ah, so now you're on to deadly POSes.

(hint: you can make POSes quite deadly as it is.)

Oh get out. POS defense is pathetic against all but solo/small fleet. You can max DS and it's still gonna go down and pretty easily.

What's the attack strategy. Start on the ewar and guns. POS gun targets you. Tell logi. Wait 2 or 3 minutes. POS guns switch. Keep shooting the whole time.

Rinse/repeat until all guns decapped.

Shoot tower.

Make the POS gun AI group up - target fast and 1 shot.
Or give POS gunners control on all guns. Whaddya I get, 5 if maxed skilled?

Mind you that I don't play with PoS's so I can't attest to the validity of these points, but they do sound like he's making some good ones This isn't the first time that I've seen someone comment on how easy it is to blow up a PoS, and how unfun it is to use them.

Hopefully they'll actually get to do what they said in the minutes about the PoS's, and that'll actually make them a little easier to defend. .

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#371 - 2012-09-29 00:20:18 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Let's have a look at the arguments here, so far.

You want nullsec space to be utilized. Your solution: make POSes killable in one sitting. My solution: make nullsec space worth using over hisec.

You want small alliances to be able to carve out space by making the bigger alliances contract. Your solution: make POSes killable in one sitting. My solution: make nullsec space more valuable and make SOV less of a waterfall style process.


Hey wait a minute. Stop shitting on the thread with this singular topic shredding.

Yes. POS's MUST be VERY VULNERABLE while they PRODUCE.

and again in case you misssed it.

Yes. POS's MUST be VERY VULNERABLE while they PRODUCE.

Quote:
And now you suddenly want POSes to be very deadly


I've ALWAYS said this too.

While they are NOT producing they ARE deadly. VERY deadly.

Got that. VERY deadly.

WHILE they are not producing.

I've ALSO stated that it may/may not have sov ramifications. Ideas were put forward as to why it MIGHT.


The debate is on the POTENTIAL it MAY have or MAY NOT have to fixing dead, empty 0.0 space.

YOUR ideas might work too - I am fine with that. So be daring and COMBINE the ideas and discuss the merits/problems.

And really. All this crap that it's a Goons shoot is moot. Goons can kill everybody, anywhere, anytime REGARDLESS of what's done.

That's why this is self-evidently NOT about the Goons. Never was. But, meh, whatever floats your boat.



All this sperging and you have yet to come up with one good idea op. Nerf highsec and buff nullsec, leave pos alone (aside from the coming revamp), and fix sov. There you go I've solved all the problems you keep failing to solve.

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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#372 - 2012-09-29 00:27:38 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
So be daring and COMBINE the ideas and discuss the merits/problems.

No. Your ideas for POSes are horrible for reasons I've detailed multiple times, and it gets worse when you extend that to sov structures.

So me being able to stroll into Goon space, drop a badboy POS and run shitz&gigglez ops in your space AND make it REALLY, REALLY painful for you to take me down is BAD for the game?

And if I switch all my POS's to badboy while you're invading and make it REALLY, REALLY painful for you to remove all my assets is BAD for the game?

I'm calling that a POS shoot needs to have real motivation. If I am no more than a nusiance then ignore me. If I am REALLY pissing you off then come get me.

Yes. You can always take me out (with numbers), but it MUST hurt.

Really, if I run the risk of putting a POS in, you need to run the risk of tearing it down.

At the moment you can just, well do it anyway.

The buff to PvP opportunities, the removal of safety in 0.0, the increase in wanton destruction and the ability for SMALL alliances to do all of this sounds like an awesome sauce opportunity to me.

If you think that's not gonna change the way things are done, then we gonna just have to agree to disagree cos I think you are soooo wrong.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#373 - 2012-09-29 00:36:21 UTC
La Nariz wrote:

All this sperging and you have yet to come up with one good idea op. Nerf highsec and buff nullsec, leave pos alone (aside from the coming revamp), and fix sov. There you go I've solved all the problems you keep failing to solve.

You looking at the problem from INSIDE out.

I'm looking at the problem from OUTSIDE in.

Right or wrong is based on which side you're on.

Highseccers will not move to nullsec because of a nerf. It's a given.
Nullseccers will stay or move back to 0.0 if opportunities are there. Granted.

Neither fixes size as being the ONLY differential in running sov.

Even if stations became destructible which I've heard a call for, just gonna clear people out. No-one is gonna to leave anything out there.

Making it possible (even slightly better) for people to get INTO and STAY in your space who are NOT blue is going to change the way PEOPLE react - one way or another.

It might bring MORE guys back to 0.0 simply because you now have all these highsec wannabe pubbies targets playing at space Gods.

Turn ALL of sov into a thunderdome, not just the bits you chose.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#374 - 2012-09-29 00:42:13 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
The buff to PvP opportunities, the removal of safety in 0.0, the increase in wanton destruction and the ability for SMALL alliances to do all of this sounds like an awesome sauce opportunity to me.

Being able to remove a POS without reinforcement would be bad for the game. Being able to remove sov structures without reinforcement timers would be bad for the game. The resource scarcity this would cause would be bad for the game.

Touval Lysander wrote:
If you think that's not gonna change the way things are done, then we gonna just have to agree to disagree cos I think you are soooo wrong.

It'll "change the way things are done", sure, but it won't be a positive change.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#375 - 2012-09-29 00:43:45 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Turn ALL of sov into a thunderdome, not just the bits you chose.

In other words, win one fight, level an entire region with the ground. Get surprised why there aren't anyone who wants to live in nullsec a few days later. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#376 - 2012-09-29 01:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Lord Zim wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Turn ALL of sov into a thunderdome, not just the bits you chose.

In other words, win one fight, level an entire region with the ground. Get surprised why there aren't anyone who wants to live in nullsec a few days later. vOv

Aww c'mon Zim. You're smarter than that. I can't level anything. I can't attack your sov. I can't touch your structures.

But I don't want to. I just wanna use the space you are NOT using.

I simply want to drop a POS, that you can't take down while you eat popcorn, watch TV and update your Twitter account at the same time.

If you want to kill my POS, I want you FOCUSED. I want you to DIE. I want you to THINK.

I am never going to be a threat to your sov and at BEST I am going to be no more than a nusiance.

You will need to decide if me being a nuisance is enough to come clear me out. If you think I MUST be removed then you can but you are going to hurt. And for every person my POS can kill, I want the km.

You WILL need to rethink the POS shoot a damn sight more carefully than the whiney, oh noes, a POS takedown. Yawn.

The entire time, ANY ship movement into/out of my POS retains exact same mechanics. That's MY choice. Sov mechanics do not change either - In fact I won't care WHO owns the space.

BUT - I'm using your space. Sure I can pay rent and do exactly the same thing and get fleet protection. What if I dont want your protection'?

Maybe I simply want you to fight, maybe I wanna kill your stuff and I've just put something there with a big flashy sign saying "COME GET" that I can stage from. And you CANNOT clear me out in dot point mode.

Will that create sov contraction? If my POS (aka my presence) makes the use of that space by your guys impossible and it's not WORTH taking down my tower then why pay any more sov bills on it?

I might be quite happy doing 5/10 and mining Zydrine. You might think it's not worth keeping and definitely not worth dying for.

So you'll drop it.

atm. If I want 0.0 space. I gotta be a blueball or join a blueball.

So BIG wins - always - just for me to BE IN 0.0 for more than 24 hours.

Something like this, 0.0 will FLOOD. The scarey bit, and I can understand your concern - they will NOT be blue.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2012-09-29 01:12:22 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Turn ALL of sov into a thunderdome, not just the bits you chose.

In other words, win one fight, level an entire region with the ground. Get surprised why there aren't anyone who wants to live in nullsec a few days later. vOv

Aww c'mon Zim. You're smarter than that. I can't level anything. I can't attack your sov. I can't touch your structures.

No, but we can.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#378 - 2012-09-29 01:17:39 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Turn ALL of sov into a thunderdome, not just the bits you chose.

In other words, win one fight, level an entire region with the ground. Get surprised why there aren't anyone who wants to live in nullsec a few days later. vOv

Aww c'mon Zim. You're smarter than that. I can't level anything. I can't attack your sov. I can't touch your structures.

No, but we can.

And if you give me something to fight back with - I might just be prepared to take the risk.

Trust me - 0.0 will FLOOD...

I reckon there is a massive amount of people stuck between accepting blue as the ONLY way or staying stuck in highsec.

This will offer an awesome opportunity.

With this - I will be the FIRST to put up a tower - I'll even tell you where it is - When I die, I'll put up another one.

Just gimme the km's so I can check if you're on it. Cool

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#379 - 2012-09-29 01:22:50 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
And if you give me something to fight back with - I might just be prepared to take the risk.

You might be able to kill off a few towers before your entire fleet gets decimated and you run yelping back to hisec like a beaten dog.

Touval Lysander wrote:
Trust me - 0.0 will FLOOD...

...with goons and test blowing up every POS and SOV structure they can find, just because.

Touval Lysander wrote:
I reckon there is a massive amount of people stuck between accepting blue as the ONLY way or staying stuck in highsec.

People who are in hisec now won't come into nullsec when it becomes shittier to live in.

Touval Lysander wrote:
This will offer an awesome opportunity.

To see just how hard one can **** over nullsec? Sure.

Touval Lysander wrote:
With this - I will be the FIRST to put up a tower - I'll even tell you where it is - When I die, I'll put up another one.

Just gimme the km's so I can check if you're on it. Cool

What's stopping you from putting up a tower, today?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#380 - 2012-09-29 01:41:37 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

Touval Lysander wrote:
With this - I will be the FIRST to put up a tower - I'll even tell you where it is - When I die, I'll put up another one.

Just gimme the km's so I can check if you're on it. Cool

What's stopping you from putting up a tower, today?

lowsec pirates might actually fight him for what he owns

thus, nullsec, lowsec and especially w-space must be FUBARd up so one guy can anchor a tower in 0.4 molden heath or whatever until he goes to bed before without his tower in 'defensive mode' and some roaming test pilot in an oracle melts his pos down while he sleeps.