EVE General Discussion

all you people crying like little girls. if you don't like it, don't use it.

now go cry over something more serious

When people aren't using character sales as a means to do things inter alliance, inter corp, with characters designed specifically to allow people to get around having to train the character, i'll agree with you.

Character bazaar gives someone acess to SP they didn't have to train.

Characters are trained specifically for the bazaard.

There is an abundance of characters available, "limited availability" is somewhat a strange beast given how many there are.

ISK is a barrier in the bazaar, if it didn't cost billions to buy a character there would be fewer characters available.


I'm saying it should cost billions more than it cost to buy a character, to just move a few million SP. Not get more, not avoid training (because you can't move what isn't trained).


If the character bazaar was full of characters with real pasts, and not characters that spent most of their time in a statin, not talking to anyone, not doing anything, nothing, I would agree about skill training. However, that's not how it is.


Buy SP off the bazaar.

Reallocate small percentage of what I trained while actually playing, for more than it cost to buy a character, once every 3 months.

Buying the SP on the bazaar, is a bigger game impacter than being able to move 3 million SP for 3 billion isk. It takes less than 2 years to get 10 million SP, at least that's what it took me with this guy. You're talking roughly 3 billion isk for 6 months of work.

I can buy two and a half years of work for 8 billion. Work I didn't have to do.



I'm really sory, but no. Buying a years worth of training that I didn't have to actually do, plan for, or even think about, is much more impacting than being able to change a month or two's worth of training.

This isn't 2006, there isn't a severe shortage of high level characters on the bazaar.

yeah i can see that you didn't say that

Yes, they are going to continue this. I can't wait for parents to start complaining that their kids spent $500 for a golden paint job for Junior's autocannon-fit Domi.

The thing is, being able to spend a PLEX to move points essentially provides the same functionality as spending a PLEX to buy them, only at a slightly higher cost (and as the history of EVE has so beautifully demonstrated, cost doesn't really work as a limitation).

Come on Tippia, really.

SP are directly related to skills, and you know that.


1 million SP is the ability to move ROUGHLY.
4, 1x skills
2, 2x skills
1, 3x skill
and maybe one 5x skill. (Edit: No, you wouldn't even be able to reallocate an entire 5x skill. So we're talking about being able to move up to 4x skill for a PLEX. It wouldn't even be cost effective to remap into a specific specialization, just sort of give a boost to older players wishing to try something new at the expense of past training, and for people to correct any SP they may have trained needlessly.)

Or a combination of them.

You're telling me that being able to spend 500-600m ISK to move 1-4 skills worth of SP would break the game, but buying this guy: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=154420&find=unread for 7billion doesn't?

You really think that character has contributed to the game? The only thing he probably purchased were skillbooks, and implants; both of which you would still have to buy with my suggestion becasue you would still need to train. That guy was born to be sold on the bazaar.

It wasn't played, And didn't contribute to the game. The only impact that character has is that it was a subscription for 6 months, most likely paid with plex. Someone will buy it, and then likely transfer it to an existing account. How is THAT better for the game than moving 3million skill points, or 12 1x skills around? It isn't.

Yes, really.

I have 98M SP. Tell me what I can do.

Yes, but SP aren't skills. SP does exactly one thing, mechanics-wise: determines how much your clone costs. When you buy (or build) a character, the SP they have is irrelevant — what matters is what skills they have.

It's this distinction that separates EVE from any of the dime-a-dozen XP-based systems. It's what makes newbies competitive against vets. It's what makes your decisions matter.

More accurately, 1M SP is the ability to skip 2½ weeks of training to get something you need. Skipping time in a game where time is the ultimate commodity is a very very bad thing.

Spending 500M ISK to skip game mechanics does indeed break the game, and giving someone 7bn because they had to endure those mechanics (because they're unskipppable) does indeed not break anything. In the former case, skills that previously weren't in place are suddenly conjured into existence out of nowhere; in the latter case, skills haven't been conjured into existence at all, but rather gathered the hard way.



Maybe this analogy will help you understand.

Now I have a wallet of… some size… what if I could inject money into a ship to have it work as an ISK buffer, so that at any time, I can right-click the ship and pick from a list any ship that could be bought for those ISK and from there turn my current ship into that other ship. I want to haul my stuff to Jita, so I get my Charon out and slog it all over there… but I don't want to slog it all the way back as well because it takes aaaaages, so I rclick→transform→Crane and zip back in a tenth of the time it took me to get there. And when I'm back home, I rclick→transform→Charon again and haul the second shipment.

As I grow older and richer, I can inject more ISK into that ship and one day, when I'm bored, I rclick→transform→Stabbed-nullified-cloaky-T3 to skip right through your perimeter and then rclick→transform→Titan and do nasty things to you… but oh no, you got the message out and now local is climbing, so I rclick→transform→nano-CovOps and warps off to AFK-cloak you until you cry…

Would you say that this ability to adapt to any kind of circumstances I find myself in is a good thing? Would you say that maybe it might have some impact on the game elements I skip (the market, manufacturing, logistics)? I mean, it's almost the same thing as just buying a new ship whenever I need one, so it can't be any problems with it, right?

…and exchanging things gives you the same result. It's kind of like the difference between leasing a car and buying a car. Just because you have to give up the one you're leasing right now to get next year's model doesn't mean you're without a car — buying it instead just means you have one you can't use at any given time.

If I were able to move SP around, there would be no need to buy SP because if I wanted or needed a skill, I could just move the SP from stuff I don't need to skills I do need. The end result is the same: I have the skills I need for the activity I'm about to engage in (in fact, moving them is slightly better because I can fit them inside a smaller clone, and I get the skills without wasting training time so I can train my alt at the same time).

You wouldn't be skipping anything. You already did the training.

You skip it by buying a character.

People aren't enduring anything when they're training characters to be sold. Sitting an alt in a station and setting up the skill Q doesn't require work.


EVE is not all about skills and having to train. If it was CCP wouldn't have the bazaar, which allows players to bypass the entire mechanic.

When anyone can come to EVE, start an account, buy and sell a few plex, and then purchase a character (which for a fact happens), the arguement about about being able to move a few skills around that you actually did take the time to train becomes rather pointless.

CCP gives us the ability to ignore the need to train skills. You can't argue against that, it's a fact, it's there, it works, CCP endorses it, they supply the means, and they give you a place to facilitate the sale.

Character sales are used for one reason, and one reason only. So that you don't have to wait to train yourself. Moving SP doesn't let you do that, because you have to train the skill in order to move the points.



It doesn't matter that "someone" trained it unless you're CCP, because an alt parked in a station being trained for 6 months for the sole purpose of being sold is a 6 month subscription.

The bazaar is flooded with them. The "someone" is trivial, it doesn't really mean much when they're mostly just alts, and there's a crapton them. Who gives a **** if someone adjusted the skill Q on a character that's never actually been played.

And people wouldn't stop training because they could adjust a couple of skills, they'd keep training, and eventually reach a point were it wouldn't be useful to them. I'm not saying you should be able to redo 98m SP.

Moving 5 million SP out of 98m does not give you a bigger advantage or allow you to impact the game more than if you purchased a 25m SP character that wasn't even being played.



Tipia, you're arguement seems based on the idea that i would want you to be able to move a large chunk of your skills. I'm talking about only being able to move a very small amount. Not even 10m. I'm thinking more like 3-5m. That way it's not having a big impact on gameplay itself and it won't undermine the bazaar. Only allow you to make slight adjustmenst if you made a mistake, or just wanted to move in a different direction. I wouldn't want anyone being able to completely respecialize a character.

All my skills are indy, market, and science. I'm only suggesting being able to move a FEW over to say piloting skills so I could get a little bit of a jump on being able to fly stuff; not go from full market and manufacturing to full on combat in supercaps over night. If someone wants to do that they should buy a character off the bazaar. However, if I wanted to move 5 skills from a mix of what I already have and put them into pilioting and weapon skills, that wouldn't actually impact the game.

To say nothig of the possibility of limiters on what skills you can change. Like say no 4x or higher skills, only base 2x and 3x. I'm talking rather minor here. Something say a year old guy could use to move those skills out of indy that they spent the first 3 months in EVE training because people told them it was an easy way to make isk and it turned out to be boring as ****.

3 or 4 skills in no way defines who your character is or even what they can do. Think of how many you have at 98m, 3 or 4 of those aren't going to impact your character in any real significant way as long as you're not able to move 8x and 9x skills. And no on would spend 50 billion just to move a few skills around when they can get the same ones for a fraction of the cost by buying a character on the bazaar.

Quit chopping the posts up Tippia. That's not really polite because everythig you left behind is required to see what I actually said in it's context.

Like it doesn't matter that someone did the training because that charater was sittingin a station for 6 months and never played. That's not the same as simply, it doesn't matter. There's context there that you're ignoring, and if you're adressing a point you shold at least adress fully.

You're ignoring entire portions of my point in favor of only adressing small parts of them. It's pretty much impossible to actually have a real discussion if most of what i'm saying is being disregarded.


Eitther don't quote it and speak your mind, or please quote me in full.


Quote this and tell me what you think please.

It's ok for you to buy a 25 million SP character off of me so that you can do something you don't have the skills to do, that I never played, that I sat in a station and just updated a skill Q every few days, but it's not ok for me to move 3 or 4 skills around?



PS: It doesn't exist, therefore... Is not a valid excuse, nor does it make a valid arguement. Not having SP remaping isn't a valid arguement against having it or make your point any more valid.

PPS: Neither is saying that because you have to train to do something, therefore you shouldn't be able to remap, but buying a charater to do something is ok even if YOU didn't have to train because someone else did. Especially when your argueing the fact that YOU have to train.

Because no YOU don't. YOU can buy a character from day one. YOU don't have to train anything. SOMEONE is able to circumvent the training mechanics. Just because SOMEONE ELSE didn't, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. It does happen, a lot.

As long as anyone can get around training, then the ability to get around having to train is present. You can't argue around that.

Saw this early and I thought it was another bad post that belong in F&I so I didn't open it. Than I logged in the game and saw the advert.