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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Drenan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3461 - 2012-09-28 19:29:38 UTC

The 'unforseen consequences' of the proposed HM and TD changes have the potential to make the WIS cluster**** look like a storm in a teacup.

I thought the new paradigm at ccp was small incremental changes to mechanics?

Someone senior at CCP needs to get a grip of this now.
Usul Crysknife
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3462 - 2012-09-28 19:32:28 UTC
When I first saw the change to missiles, my response was "WTF thats crap"

And then I sat down and ran the numbers - among all cruiser sized long range weapon systems, HMLS have the largest raw damage and range with lvl 5 skills. Okay so I can see that the raw numbers here need some balancing.

But when you take into consideration things like travel time, no wrecking shots, inability to tune range/damage tradeoff with ammo - and most importantly ship bonuses - it becomes obvious just looking at the raw damage numbers is inadequate.

Most missile ship bonuses are usually for Kinetic damage only, forcing missile pilots into a single damage type when one of the benefit of missiles is supposed to be swapping ammo to best suit your target's resist hole. In fact, the only missile cruiser that I can think of off the top of my head which gets a bonus that does not only affect Kinetic damage is the rook.

Gunboats get ROF bonuses, or (unrestricted) damage bonuses, or both. Comparing the drake to the hurricane at BC 5, the drake gets +25% DPS to kinetic only while the hurricane gets +50% to all projectile damage.

If CCP is going to go ahead and balance the raw damage of missiles to be in line with its peers, they need to do the same with ship bonuses at the very least.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#3463 - 2012-09-28 19:46:16 UTC
MIrple wrote:


If you look at the 4 attack cruisers the Caracal and the Thorax will be the 2 ships that shine after the changes. The stabber will likely be a heavy tackler and the omen is still up in the air.


You're high man. Seriously. It's a piece of crap now (which is why you never really see them) and it will be just as much of a piece of crap after this.

With HMs it's post nerf DPS will actually be LOWER than it is now. It will be somewhat better with AMLs, but that's not saying a lot. You'll be pushing T1 frigate dps in a ship with no neuts or drones. What, exactly, do you think it's going to "shine" at doing other than decorating your hangar?
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3464 - 2012-09-28 19:53:58 UTC
Usul Crysknife wrote:

Gunboats get ROF bonuses, or (unrestricted) damage bonuses, or both. Comparing the drake to the hurricane at BC 5, the drake gets +25% DPS to kinetic only while the hurricane gets +50% to all projectile damage.

If CCP is going to go ahead and balance the raw damage of missiles to be in line with its peers, they need to do the same with ship bonuses at the very least.

You need to factor in the fact that HM's have insane range, and insane dps when taking that range into account. They are also a long range weapon, so you can't compare them to 425mm AC Cane. Even at that, the range you will be fighting on might just as well be round about point range, where the Drake will dominate a Hurricane.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3465 - 2012-09-28 20:01:27 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
It's not a direct buff, it's a compromise which would involve a loss of tank to do it on these hulls. That's an ok principle: more gank, less tank

However - those hulls are directly and clearly weakened by the HM changes already, there is no reason to lump TD effects on all other boats.


One more time for luck: Why are we reducing the combat effectiveness of already recognised weak hulls across the board? to what point or purpose? So they can spend 6 months even weaker before a rebalance puts them back to where they are today a-la the caracal?


Could you just stop for a moment and check what CCP is doing to missile boat bonuses?

TD is module you can use too. It's not as easy to fit one in every ship like people think: for example put TD to Coercer and then start to think what other mid slot modules you can fit.

If HML is "weakest weapon" in the game then why people use Drakes and Tengus?

Daniel Plain wrote:
i don't see why you would need to 'balance' HML damage when they are not in direct competition with other weapon systems. no one ever has the choice between fitting HMLs and turrets on the same hull (except maybe some weird loki fits), so there is no reason to change the weapon system at all.


It's about ship choices. You can't fit HMLs to Harbingers (nobody ever said it's even possible) and go against Drakes. People just use Drakes and Tengus without any particular reason?
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3466 - 2012-09-28 20:03:20 UTC
Jorma, they say "there are 2 problem hulls", meaning Drake and Tengu needs a rebalance, then they go on and say that the bonus is ****** because you only get a bonus to kinetic.....

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#3467 - 2012-09-28 20:12:42 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
It's not a direct buff, it's a compromise which would involve a loss of tank to do it on these hulls. That's an ok principle: more gank, less tank

However - those hulls are directly and clearly weakened by the HM changes already, there is no reason to lump TD effects on all other boats.


One more time for luck: Why are we reducing the combat effectiveness of already recognised weak hulls across the board? to what point or purpose? So they can spend 6 months even weaker before a rebalance puts them back to where they are today a-la the caracal?


Could you just stop for a moment and check what CCP is doing to missile boat bonuses?

TD is module you can use too. It's not as easy to fit one in every ship like people think: for example put TD to Coercer and then start to think what other mid slot modules you can fit.

If HML is "weakest weapon" in the game then why people use Drakes and Tengus?



You're missing my point; set aside the HML...done that? Good.

Now tell me why EVERY OTHER MISSILE BOAT needs to contend with a nerf to effectiveness? Other than the two dodgy hulls, missile boats are - bluntly - a running joke.

It is different in PvE, of course, but those rats are not going to affect missioners with the TD so again....are non heavy missile, missile users REALLY that powerful we need to reduce their power PRIOR to a hull rebalance in PvP? Are ravens so tough? are the rooks overruning the forge? Perhaps the kestral is popping one too many rifters?

Set aside the two bad HML hulls and tell me why weapon systems that, with one exception being torps, don't even make the kill boards need reducing in power...
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3468 - 2012-09-28 20:23:24 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Jorma, they say "there are 2 problem hulls", meaning Drake and Tengu needs a rebalance, then they go on and say that the bonus is ****** because you only get a bonus to kinetic.....


Kinetic damage bonus is weird and stupid. But that's one of the things CCP is fixing.

They have done solid work thus far. We are actually going to point where I have to start thinking about training those missile skills. That kinetic damage bonus has been clear "stop right there!" sign for me. Even though people have suggested Raven/CNR/SNI.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3469 - 2012-09-28 20:32:17 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Now tell me why EVERY OTHER MISSILE BOAT needs to contend with a nerf to effectiveness? Other than the two dodgy hulls, missile boats are - bluntly - a running joke.

It is different in PvE, of course, but those rats are not going to affect missioners with the TD so again....are non heavy missile, missile users REALLY that powerful we need to reduce their power PRIOR to a hull rebalance in PvP? Are ravens so tough? are the rooks overruning the forge? Perhaps the kestral is popping one too many rifters?

Set aside the two bad HML hulls and tell me why weapon systems that, with one exception being torps, don't even make the kill boards need reducing in power...


You do realize that Drake and other BCs aren't going to be rebalanced in next expansion?
You do realize that T3s are probably the last ship class they rebalance? We are talking about probably year 2014 here.

CCP is going to buff missile ships in every size and shape.

You do realize that ROF bonus they have mentioned for new Drake is clear buff to Drake's dps? If heavy missiles have same range and damage they currently have, Drake would be the only BC to fly. If you would fly anything else you would be laughed out of game.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#3470 - 2012-09-28 20:39:00 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Now tell me why EVERY OTHER MISSILE BOAT needs to contend with a nerf to effectiveness? Other than the two dodgy hulls, missile boats are - bluntly - a running joke.

It is different in PvE, of course, but those rats are not going to affect missioners with the TD so again....are non heavy missile, missile users REALLY that powerful we need to reduce their power PRIOR to a hull rebalance in PvP? Are ravens so tough? are the rooks overruning the forge? Perhaps the kestral is popping one too many rifters?

Set aside the two bad HML hulls and tell me why weapon systems that, with one exception being torps, don't even make the kill boards need reducing in power...


You do realize that Drake and other BCs aren't going to be rebalanced in next expansion?
You do realize that T3s are probably the last ship class they rebalance? We are talking about probably year 2014 here.

CCP is going to buff missile ships in every size and shape.

You do realize that ROF bonus they have mentioned for new Drake is clear buff to Drake's dps? If heavy missiles have same range and damage they currently have, Drake would be the only BC to fly. If you would fly anything else you would be laughed out of game.


For the love of peace, FORGET THE FRICKIN' HML SYSTEMS. I'm not talking about them, don't give a rats ass. I care about the effectiveness nerf to ALL missile hulls brought by TD modules affecting missiles.

They're (in PvP) nerfing every missile hull for reasons which, apart from Drake/Tengu are completely obscured to me.

So....please tell me....what am I missing?



Fake edit: If the modules are split it may not be as bad; however the "WHY?!" still stands. Why nerf some of the least used, least effective boats out there?
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3471 - 2012-09-28 20:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

For the love of peace, FORGET THE FRICKIN' HML SYSTEMS. I'm not talking about them, don't give a rats ass. I care about the effectiveness nerf to ALL missile hulls brought by TD modules affecting missiles.

They're (in PvP) nerfing every missile hull for reasons which, apart from Drake/Tengu are completely obscured to me.

So....please tell me....what am I missing?


Fake edit: If the modules are split it may not be as bad; however the "WHY?!" still stands. Why nerf some of the least used, least effective boats out there?


Did you miss the entire tiercide thing going on? HML's get nerfed, hulls get buffed.
And you missed the TE/TC's

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#3472 - 2012-09-28 20:53:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

For the love of peace, FORGET THE FRICKIN' HML SYSTEMS. I'm not talking about them, don't give a rats ass. I care about the effectiveness nerf to ALL missile hulls brought by TD modules affecting missiles.

They're (in PvP) nerfing every missile hull for reasons which, apart from Drake/Tengu are completely obscured to me.

So....please tell me....what am I missing?


Fake edit: If the modules are split it may not be as bad; however the "WHY?!" still stands. Why nerf some of the least used, least effective boats out there?


Did you miss the entire tiercide thing going on? HML's get nerfed, hulls get buffed.
And you missed the TE/TC's


Yes...and where are the boats going to put these modules? They will sacrifice tank. Sacrifice tank they already don't have, to maintain a DPS which is already substandard.

Why?

Why do TD need to affect missiles **now**?

Why can't it wait until the hulls are balanced? What is so criminal about light/cruise/rockets/torps/etc that we need to reduce their carrying hulls effectivness immediately?


All I can think of is missile boats need a PvE leg up (given by TC/TE and TD to to sort PvP)....but there're better ways to do that....
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3473 - 2012-09-28 20:55:15 UTC
Does everyone here think it's ok that turrets can be effectively destroyed by tracking disruptors, but there is no way to reduce missile range or explosion velocity/radius?

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3474 - 2012-09-28 21:01:19 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Yes...and where are the boats going to put these modules? They will sacrifice tank. Sacrifice tank they already don't have, to maintain a DPS which is already substandard.

Why?

Why do TD need to affect missiles **now**?

Why can't it wait until the hulls are balanced? What is so criminal about light/cruise/rockets/torps/etc that we need to reduce their carrying hulls effectivness immediately?


All I can think of is missile boats need a PvE leg up....but there's better ways to do that....

Drake sacrificing tank it does no have... ಠ_ಠ

Get your head around this man, seriously. For how many YEARS have ALL turret ships had to sacrifice their tank or utility for better dps, which in Gallente's case have no range what so f****** ever, and are too slow to get in range to apply it, in Minmatar's case, they fight in falloff, which negates your argument about "sub-par" dps. The effective DPS of Minmatar are usually 40-60% of EFT dps. Amarr have super range with scorch, but it's still LOLDPS in close range where other turrets apply their full dps which is more or less always better than any Amarr hull.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3475 - 2012-09-28 21:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
For the love of peace, FORGET THE FRICKIN' HML SYSTEMS. I'm not talking about them, don't give a rats ass. I care about the effectiveness nerf to ALL missile hulls brought by TD modules affecting missiles.

They're (in PvP) nerfing every missile hull for reasons which, apart from Drake/Tengu are completely obscured to me.

So....please tell me....what am I missing?



Fake edit: If the modules are split it may not be as bad; however the "WHY?!" still stands. Why nerf some of the least used, least effective boats out there?


TE/TC will affect missiles after this change. TD is direct counter to those modules. There would be no TDs if there's no TEs/TCs.

And not every ship has mid slots for TD. Show me PVP Armageddon with TD, PVP Abaddon with TD, PVP Coercer with TD.

Who says CCP doesn't just nerf TD and give bigger bonus to those ships that are specialized tracking disruptor ships (Arbitrator and its T2 variants)? New Arbitrator is going to have same bonus Curse already has so it's going to go up for T2.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#3476 - 2012-09-28 21:05:52 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Does everyone here think it's ok that turrets can be effectively destroyed by tracking disruptors, but there is no way to reduce missile range or explosion velocity/radius?


Your complaint is they are not the same, which I get but....missiles boats can't compete with turret boats beyond drak-gu™ as it is.

When missiles (APART FROM HEAVY) can compete with turrets, perhaps that is the time to address EWAR options?

Or perhaps you'd like firewall strats to work against turret fire too?

Look at the top 20 kills, top 20 weapon kills....put aside the busted and to be addressed HML hulls....do you see ANYTHING that suggests missiles boats are in need of a power reduction?

If so, what?
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#3477 - 2012-09-28 21:09:35 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Yes...and where are the boats going to put these modules? They will sacrifice tank. Sacrifice tank they already don't have, to maintain a DPS which is already substandard.

Why?

Why do TD need to affect missiles **now**?

Why can't it wait until the hulls are balanced? What is so criminal about light/cruise/rockets/torps/etc that we need to reduce their carrying hulls effectivness immediately?


All I can think of is missile boats need a PvE leg up....but there's better ways to do that....

Drake sacrificing tank it does no have... ಠ_ಠ

Get your head around this man, seriously. For how many YEARS have ALL turret ships had to sacrifice their tank or utility for better dps, which in Gallente's case have no range what so f****** ever, and are too slow to get in range to apply it, in Minmatar's case, they fight in falloff, which negates your argument about "sub-par" dps. The effective DPS of Minmatar are usually 40-60% of EFT dps. Amarr have super range with scorch, but it's still LOLDPS in close range where other turrets apply their full dps which is more or less always better than any Amarr hull.



Jesus....what part of "SET ASIDE THE HML PLATFORMS"

is it you're struggling with?

/facepalm


Present some statistical evidence (like the kind so commonly cited to prove HML are broken) that demonstrates missile hulls [APART FROM HML] are in need of a power check.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3478 - 2012-09-28 21:11:56 UTC
Which is why they are rebalancing. TE/TC will help all those unused ships and their different missile platforms. Suddenly a bomber can go kill frigs with torps! So they can basically now compete with turrets, and they can be destroyed by a TD, just like turrets.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3479 - 2012-09-28 21:13:25 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Jesus....what part of "SET ASIDE THE HML PLATFORMS"

is it you're struggling with?

/facepalm


Present some statistical evidence (like the kind so commonly cited to prove HML are broken) that demonstrates missile hulls [APART FROM HML] are in need of a power check.

Um, I said missile platforms should get a buff, which they are getting, both in the form of hull rebalance, and TE/TC affecting missiles....

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3480 - 2012-09-28 21:15:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Look at the top 20 kills, top 20 weapon kills....put aside the busted and to be addressed HML hulls....do you see ANYTHING that suggests missiles boats are in need of a power reduction?


Is it just me or does this really say "nerf Scorch!"?

Hannott Thanos wrote:
Um, I said missile platforms should get a buff, which they are getting, both in the form of hull rebalance, and TE/TC affecting missiles....


Yeah, I for one am looking forward to flying Raven/SNI.