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Please define 'colourful language' CCP Gargant & please tell me what you have against it

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Robus Muvila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#61 - 2012-09-27 21:37:33 UTC
But Butt-frustrated is an awesome word Cry

TMC Senior Developer http://themittani.com - Because EvE has needed a proper news site for ages
Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#62 - 2012-09-27 23:47:23 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:

What happened to 'sandbox' and 'cold, dark and harsh world' ? Or doesn't that apply to the forums?


Well if it was truly a 'cold, dark and harsh world' on the forums then a community dude could come along and ban you permanently for no reason. That would be the epitome of harsh Blink

Thankfully, we adhere to guidelines and the first of those guidelines are that this is a teen rated forum and the language used should reflect that.

I know, I know but 'maybe you should do this and that so I can just hurl invective when I want.'

No. The end.


It jut seems very strange that you have such different rules on the forums. People in game have all kinds of foul language hurled at them and are attacked without provocation losing much more than is possible to lose on the forums.

Or can I get a player banned for calling me names in-game?

Why are the forums 'teen rated' and the game itself not? Doesn't make much sense.
San Severina
One Point 0
#63 - 2012-09-28 01:40:03 UTC
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:

What happened to 'sandbox' and 'cold, dark and harsh world' ? Or doesn't that apply to the forums?


Well if it was truly a 'cold, dark and harsh world' on the forums then a community dude could come along and ban you permanently for no reason. That would be the epitome of harsh Blink

Thankfully, we adhere to guidelines and the first of those guidelines are that this is a teen rated forum and the language used should reflect that.

I know, I know but 'maybe you should do this and that so I can just hurl invective when I want.'

No. The end.


It jut seems very strange that you have such different rules on the forums. People in game have all kinds of foul language hurled at them and are attacked without provocation losing much more than is possible to lose on the forums.

Or can I get a player banned for calling me names in-game?

Why are the forums 'teen rated' and the game itself not? Doesn't make much sense.


we covered this earlier it seems;

CCP Gargant wrote:
San Severina wrote:

It's a shame none of this extreme enforcement of 'rules' doesn't apply to the actual in-game content created by the very same players who come here everyday. I'm pretty sure no one is objecting to 'colourful language' in Ren's local or Jita where infractions of the rules would be committed almost 60 times a minute. Seems slightly incongruous & dare I say it hypocritical.


That's not the topic of discussion here. The in-game chat channels follow other rules and are moderated by other people. What I'm saying is that if you leave out the name calling and scale back the amount of bad manner in your discussions on the forums and thus post constructively, I'm ready to err on your side and maybe even let a few things slide.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence or berate you in any way. I'm just trying to list my approach to the moderating I do. I bring that approach to all of the discussions I am included in, and being pretty loud I usually make sure my point of view is heard.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2012-09-28 01:49:50 UTC
Robus Muvila wrote:
But Butt-frustrated is an awesome word Cry


I concur, we should petition this

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#65 - 2012-09-28 01:53:58 UTC
See why can't more threads be like this. Instead of the blanket "locked for discussing X" actually discuss the reasonings behind it.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-09-28 02:03:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
CCP Gargant wrote:
San Severina wrote:
CCP Gargant, do you copy pasta those responses straight out of the how to be an an arrogant, smug, condescending douche manual? I'm surprised you guys haven't banned that too & had it burned.
My life is colourful language, I thought the real 'offensive' stuff was taken care of with the 'filter'. So I'm not allowed to use colourful language here either?
I'm so sorry I made you 'sigh', it seems only fair though because I can guarantee I'm not the only visitor groaning audibly every time I read some indescribably average, over zealous reason for locking yet another thread.


tell you what, rate my avatar & give me a like will you, I feel a sudden desire to start a facebook account.

thanks ::smiley emoticon bs::


Colorful language that I find completely unnecessary includes words like armchair fascists, pricks, butt frustrated, samefag and low life douchebags. I'm still letting a few of our rules slide in that post such as not being allowed to discuss moderation.

I am an avid supporter of criticism, opinion and discussion. If you leave out the insults and the attacks, you can convey a different point or disagree with someone strongly. Just do it within the rules.

I just wan to clarify, because I too use a lot of colorful language.

Condenscending douche is OK, just not a bagged low life version? :)
I just want to make sure that I use the acceptable douche when posting. :)


PS: I would add that they do do a good job of letting you slide with stuff. I know I've posted some 'colorful' language that would have had me banned on other forums, but I do try and include it in constructive posts. I'm a horrible smart ass and it tends to get me in trouble on pretty much every other forum.

Either the mods really do let you slide if you at least post constructively, or they just have a much better sense of humor than most forum mods.
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#67 - 2012-09-28 12:28:27 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
If need be, I'll create a very inspiring video guide ...[snip]... on how to be a fair and beautiful moderator.


I'd like to see that, please.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#68 - 2012-09-28 12:35:34 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
See why can't more threads be like this. Instead of the blanket "locked for discussing X" actually discuss the reasonings behind it.


10% of your monthly rent to this game, went to supporting this thread. Why its a lot better then most moderated threads.

Are we still not allowed to say, die in a fire?

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#69 - 2012-09-28 14:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
See why can't more threads be like this. Instead of the blanket "locked for discussing X" actually discuss the reasonings behind it.

I'd speculate that the reason why not is because those topics aren't a new topic for the moderators. After a few dozen times at the well, I certainly would be reverting to the cut&paste "locked for discussing X" mode, and any of you who say otherwise have probably not experienced it (or are simply delusional). But because Eve's player base is constantly in a state of turnover, there are always new players (or old players new to the forums) to repeat the same topics or complaints. I dub this the "nothing new under the sun" effect, Eve-style.

BTW, I have no solution for this sequence of events. I don't envy the moderators, but I do applaud them for the occasions (like this one) where they're able to "play it again, Sam" for us.

MDD
PI Maker
Doomheim
#70 - 2012-09-28 15:59:47 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
San Severina wrote:

It's a shame none of this extreme enforcement of 'rules' doesn't apply to the actual in-game content created by the very same players who come here everyday. I'm pretty sure no one is objecting to 'colourful language' in Ren's local or Jita where infractions of the rules would be committed almost 60 times a minute. Seems slightly incongruous & dare I say it hypocritical.


That's not the topic of discussion here. The in-game chat channels follow other rules and are moderated by other people. What I'm saying is that if you leave out the name calling and scale back the amount of bad manner in your discussions on the forums and thus post constructively, I'm ready to err on your side and maybe even let a few things slide.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence or berate you in any way. I'm just trying to list my approach to the moderating I do. I bring that approach to all of the discussions I am included in, and being pretty loud I usually make sure my point of view is heard.

Why does it matter what particular language he chooses? What does that have to do with anything? Why do the devs and ISD keep inserting themselves into threads by making value judgements about the content of posts? If it isn't hate speech or violate any laws, what's the problem? Seriously. What exactly is the problem? If I post a thread that says all Goons are morally bankrupt, do you really need to come in and lock that thread? Why? Is the clutter of crappy threads like that any worse than the clutter of crappy threads like the Avatar Next to You bullshit?

Too often these days you guys are engaging in completely unnecessary moderation in defense of some ill conceived sense of what's "appropriate." Again, why does it matter how he or anyone else says it? What does it matter if a thread devolves into two guys saying "No, you are" again and again? If people don't want to read that, they don't have to. If you go back to the old forums, you didn't do this sort of moderation. If you look carefully, you'll also see a lot less crap threads created for baiting the moderators by people posting outrageously, egregiously profane and insulting threads. Every time you do this kind of moderation the troll army starts feeding you more crap. They're creating work for you.

The issue that is pissing off so many people is that you guys are moderating inconsistently and you're engaged in selective enforcment. In this thread you specifically say you're "letting things slide." If the rules are the rules and the reasons for the rules are incredibly important, then you don't have the option of letting it slide. And if you're letting it slide here, for this, what else will you let slide? What is the value judgement being made? It seems clear that enforcement is selective if you or ISD Type40 or whomever can decide to let things slide or annihilate a post and ban the poster. It is inevitable that people will see these sorts of edits as biased. We can easily see and compare the edits to those posts that weren't edited and the posters who weren't muzzled. Like the one in THIS thread calling the OP a moronic douchebag, a word you specifically say isn't permitted, and you say it in THIS thread. Eventually you're going to be forced into moderating these forums like it was Hello Kitty Adventures because that's the only way to enforce the kind of consistency necessary to control the speech of 400k subscribers.

Please, take a few steps back and answer the most basic of questions. Why are the rules what they are? What is their real intent? What is necessary and what is simply arbitrary? Are you going to recognize that the forums are part of the game and the game is being played out on the forums (yes, there are propaganda wars, information wars, and wars of features/ideas/fixes going on here)? In a game where the rules and parameters of the game are themselves up for grabs, the forums serve as just another battlefield. When you make arbitrary value judgements about the content of posts, you're making decisions about how players play the game, which is something you guys absolutely don't do; its part of the CCP ethos.

That doesn't mean that aren't perfectly valid reasons for moderation, like hate speech or threats of RL violence. Moderating a whiny douchebag like the OP may feel good, but it isn't actually necessary.
Korsiri
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2012-09-28 16:38:08 UTC
PI Maker wrote:
CCP Gargant wrote:
San Severina wrote:

It's a shame none of this extreme enforcement of 'rules' doesn't apply to the actual in-game content created by the very same players who come here everyday. I'm pretty sure no one is objecting to 'colourful language' in Ren's local or Jita where infractions of the rules would be committed almost 60 times a minute. Seems slightly incongruous & dare I say it hypocritical.


That's not the topic of discussion here. The in-game chat channels follow other rules and are moderated by other people. What I'm saying is that if you leave out the name calling and scale back the amount of bad manner in your discussions on the forums and thus post constructively, I'm ready to err on your side and maybe even let a few things slide.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence or berate you in any way. I'm just trying to list my approach to the moderating I do. I bring that approach to all of the discussions I am included in, and being pretty loud I usually make sure my point of view is heard.

Why does it matter what particular language he chooses? What does that have to do with anything? Why do the devs and ISD keep inserting themselves into threads by making value judgements about the content of posts? If it isn't hate speech or violate any laws, what's the problem? Seriously. What exactly is the problem? If I post a thread that says all Goons are morally bankrupt, do you really need to come in and lock that thread? Why? Is the clutter of crappy threads like that any worse than the clutter of crappy threads like the Avatar Next to You bullshit?

Too often these days you guys are engaging in completely unnecessary moderation in defense of some ill conceived sense of what's "appropriate." Again, why does it matter how he or anyone else says it? What does it matter if a thread devolves into two guys saying "No, you are" again and again? If people don't want to read that, they don't have to. If you go back to the old forums, you didn't do this sort of moderation. If you look carefully, you'll also see a lot less crap threads created for baiting the moderators by people posting outrageously, egregiously profane and insulting threads. Every time you do this kind of moderation the troll army starts feeding you more crap. They're creating work for you.

The issue that is pissing off so many people is that you guys are moderating inconsistently and you're engaged in selective enforcment. In this thread you specifically say you're "letting things slide." If the rules are the rules and the reasons for the rules are incredibly important, then you don't have the option of letting it slide. And if you're letting it slide here, for this, what else will you let slide? What is the value judgement being made? It seems clear that enforcement is selective if you or ISD Type40 or whomever can decide to let things slide or annihilate a post and ban the poster. It is inevitable that people will see these sorts of edits as biased. We can easily see and compare the edits to those posts that weren't edited and the posters who weren't muzzled. Like the one in THIS thread calling the OP a moronic douchebag, a word you specifically say isn't permitted, and you say it in THIS thread. Eventually you're going to be forced into moderating these forums like it was Hello Kitty Adventures because that's the only way to enforce the kind of consistency necessary to control the speech of 400k subscribers.

Please, take a few steps back and answer the most basic of questions. Why are the rules what they are? What is their real intent? What is necessary and what is simply arbitrary? Are you going to recognize that the forums are part of the game and the game is being played out on the forums (yes, there are propaganda wars, information wars, and wars of features/ideas/fixes going on here)? In a game where the rules and parameters of the game are themselves up for grabs, the forums serve as just another battlefield. When you make arbitrary value judgements about the content of posts, you're making decisions about how players play the game, which is something you guys absolutely don't do; its part of the CCP ethos.

That doesn't mean that aren't perfectly valid reasons for moderation, like hate speech or threats of RL violence. Moderating a whiny douchebag like the OP may feel good, but it isn't actually necessary.


because it's a waste of time, better spent elsewhere. Nuff said.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#72 - 2012-09-28 17:08:31 UTC
San Severina wrote:
Hiro Ceffoe wrote:
Pft give it up already

We get it, your annoyed, get in line over here Correct thread for this discussion

You made a pointless thread, it got locked, you made another one, its gonna get locked, what part of this process confuses you?


The part where the reasons for locking the thread in general discussion is 'Colourful Language' that made him sigh' oh the humanity!

Please don't insult my intelligence, give me the real reason. We have guidelines that don't allow criticism of the game of any opinions we don't like, it's bad for business. Remember the greed is good debacle?



I only act like this on alcohol. It's a good idea to stop, really.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#73 - 2012-09-28 17:19:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
PI Maker wrote:
CCP Gargant wrote:
San Severina wrote:

It's a shame none of this extreme enforcement of 'rules' doesn't apply to the actual in-game content created by the very same players who come here everyday. I'm pretty sure no one is objecting to 'colourful language' in Ren's local or Jita where infractions of the rules would be committed almost 60 times a minute. Seems slightly incongruous & dare I say it hypocritical.


That's not the topic of discussion here. The in-game chat channels follow other rules and are moderated by other people. What I'm saying is that if you leave out the name calling and scale back the amount of bad manner in your discussions on the forums and thus post constructively, I'm ready to err on your side and maybe even let a few things slide.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence or berate you in any way. I'm just trying to list my approach to the moderating I do. I bring that approach to all of the discussions I am included in, and being pretty loud I usually make sure my point of view is heard.

Why does it matter what particular language he chooses? What does that have to do with anything? Why do the devs and ISD keep inserting themselves into threads by making value judgements about the content of posts? If it isn't hate speech or violate any laws, what's the problem? Seriously. What exactly is the problem? If I post a thread that says all Goons are morally bankrupt, do you really need to come in and lock that thread? Why? Is the clutter of crappy threads like that any worse than the clutter of crappy threads like the Avatar Next to You bullshit?

Too often these days you guys are engaging in completely unnecessary moderation in defense of some ill conceived sense of what's "appropriate." Again, why does it matter how he or anyone else says it? What does it matter if a thread devolves into two guys saying "No, you are" again and again? If people don't want to read that, they don't have to. If you go back to the old forums, you didn't do this sort of moderation. If you look carefully, you'll also see a lot less crap threads created for baiting the moderators by people posting outrageously, egregiously profane and insulting threads. Every time you do this kind of moderation the troll army starts feeding you more crap. They're creating work for you.

The issue that is pissing off so many people is that you guys are moderating inconsistently and you're engaged in selective enforcment. In this thread you specifically say you're "letting things slide." If the rules are the rules and the reasons for the rules are incredibly important, then you don't have the option of letting it slide. And if you're letting it slide here, for this, what else will you let slide? What is the value judgement being made? It seems clear that enforcement is selective if you or ISD Type40 or whomever can decide to let things slide or annihilate a post and ban the poster. It is inevitable that people will see these sorts of edits as biased. We can easily see and compare the edits to those posts that weren't edited and the posters who weren't muzzled. Like the one in THIS thread calling the OP a moronic douchebag, a word you specifically say isn't permitted, and you say it in THIS thread. Eventually you're going to be forced into moderating these forums like it was Hello Kitty Adventures because that's the only way to enforce the kind of consistency necessary to control the speech of 400k subscribers.

Please, take a few steps back and answer the most basic of questions. Why are the rules what they are? What is their real intent? What is necessary and what is simply arbitrary? Are you going to recognize that the forums are part of the game and the game is being played out on the forums (yes, there are propaganda wars, information wars, and wars of features/ideas/fixes going on here)? In a game where the rules and parameters of the game are themselves up for grabs, the forums serve as just another battlefield. When you make arbitrary value judgements about the content of posts, you're making decisions about how players play the game, which is something you guys absolutely don't do; its part of the CCP ethos.

That doesn't mean that aren't perfectly valid reasons for moderation, like hate speech or threats of RL violence. Moderating a whiny douchebag like the OP may feel good, but it isn't actually necessary.


Contrary to popular belief, the forums are not the game environment... and quite purposefully operate under a different rule set.

This is a privately owned forum, and they can moderate it any way they wish. Frankly, they DO allow a lot of garbage on this forum that you would get the boot for elsewhere... but they do have clear rules in place that they can refer to when they get tired of our crap.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
ctx2007
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2012-09-28 17:36:27 UTC
Us children read these forums and colourful words are offensive.

When I say children, I mean us men in our 40 somethings going thought our second child hood P

You only realise you life has been a waste of time, when you wake up dead.
San Severina
One Point 0
#75 - 2012-09-29 09:26:52 UTC
PI Maker wrote:


Why does it matter what particular language he chooses? What does that have to do with anything? Why do the devs and ISD keep inserting themselves into threads by making value judgements about the content of posts?

Too often these days you guys are engaging in completely unnecessary moderation in defense of some ill conceived sense of what's "appropriate." Again, why does it matter how he or anyone else says it? What does it matter if a thread devolves into two guys saying "No, you are" again and again? If people don't want to read that, they don't have to. If you go back to the old forums, you didn't do this sort of moderation. If you look carefully, you'll also see a lot less crap threads created for baiting the moderators by people posting outrageously, egregiously profane and insulting threads. Every time you do this kind of moderation the troll army starts feeding you more crap. They're creating work for you.



That doesn't mean that aren't perfectly valid reasons for moderation, like hate speech or threats of RL violence. Moderating a whiny douchebag like the OP may feel good, but it isn't actually necessary.


I enjoyed your post PI Maker & did not miss the irony of you calling me a whiny douchebag. :D
Next time use your main!
Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#76 - 2012-09-29 10:35:43 UTC
ctx2007 wrote:
Us children read these forums and colourful words are offensive.

When I say children, I mean us men in our 40 somethings going thought our second child hood P


GET OFF OF MY LAWN!
San Severina
One Point 0
#77 - 2012-09-29 12:33:07 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:


Contrary to popular belief, the forums are not the game environment... and quite purposefully operate under a different rule set.

This is a privately owned forum, and they can moderate it any way they wish. Frankly, they DO allow a lot of garbage on this forum that you would get the boot for elsewhere... but they do have clear rules in place that they can refer to when they get tired of our crap.


I'm not sure what popular belief is, but I'm reluctant to underestimate the intelligence of the average EvE player. I think that's a mistake.
I also believe the current situation with volunteer mods arbitrarily locking threads while watching Son's of Anarchy on their other monitor, shutting down valid discussion because some trifling violation was detected, is counter productive & not good for the community or the health of the forum, for obvious reasons.
The beauty of these forums used to be that the player base who participated in General Discussion decided what was a 'garbage' thread. Unless some obvious violation of the rules was detected no mod locks were needed, garbage just fell of the first page fast. The forum was healthy & active & a pretty decent place for lively debate, discussion & wit.
Now, not so much.

I see a certain hypocrisy in this approach, & condescension ; you're fine to play the game but we need to supervise you strongly on our forums because you can't be trusted not to troll or stay on topic or be unoffensive.

The latent function of this approach is to create a dull forum, with users who cower in fear of bans & thread locks, it's rewards sycophants & discourages the airing of unpopular, controversial or critical discussion.
Not only are threads locked but posts are permanently deleted, removed from the public record, this type of extreme moderation is the norm here now.
I'm guessing now, but I feel this might have been a conscious decision on 'the forum owners' part to render virtually useless the main means & venue for rallying players, to avoid another mass movement similar to the catastrophic 'greed is good' Incarna debacle.
It's really the only sane reason I can see for nobbling the community in this way. This community used to be the pride of the game, now, inexplicably, we need extreme moderation & deletion & supervision from over zealous volunteers.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-09-29 13:25:19 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
Colorful language that I find completely unnecessary includes words like armchair fascists, pricks, butt frustrated, samefag and low life douchebags


I fear for the future of humanity when someone thinks that this stuff is colourful language.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
ISD Praetoxx
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2012-09-29 13:29:49 UTC
Locked for tro.... oh wait ... never mind.

If anyone is worried or concerned or unsure just what exactly the forum rules are, go to http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Forum_rules and have a read. They might save you a lot of heartache should your thread/post get moderated.

It needs to be said time and time again. Some people are new to posting on forums and may not know how the systems works.

Do not be afraid. I will protect you all.

ISD Praetoxx Lieutenant Community Communication Liasons (CCLs) Interstellar Service Department
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#80 - 2012-09-29 13:35:22 UTC
San Severina wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:
San Severina wrote:
how to be an an arrogant, smug, condescending douche

see the OP for more details



are you trying to inflame the debate & get my thread locked SkipperMonkey?

No but seriously, touche.

I don't think the OP is being that... There is way to much anal complaining about meaningless stuff, mostly by ISD's

But colorful language is like calling someone "You blue fool" or maybe "you orange knob"...etc...