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Wasted space
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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#281 - 2012-09-27 23:08:40 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

I'm sure those worthless ******* systems would be worth something, if only a small alliance could take control of them.

If only.... A point we can agree on.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#282 - 2012-09-27 23:29:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Touval Lysander wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

I'm sure those worthless ******* systems would be worth something, if only a small alliance could take control of them.

If only.... A point we can agree on.

Then prove they'de be useful to you. If they're empty and we're doing nothing with them then you shouldn't have any trouble flying around in those systems and making ISK.

Just think of it like goons paying the sov bill for you, while you just pull in tons and tons of ISK in a free system. Obviously, as you pointed out in the thread starter, they're perfectly safe because we don't give a **** who flies around in them. So go fly around and make ISK in them.

Feel free to mine, rat, run missions and anoms, whatever. It's empty, unused, and wasted space, only need you to fill it.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#283 - 2012-09-27 23:37:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Touval Lysander wrote:
For all this talk about 0.0 manu/pve etc. I fully agree with the theory behind making 0.0 better for the individual (read corps etc.), but It's this blanket ownership of massive areas of sov, underutilized (except maybe for moon goo) that irks me. I'm attempting to work out how it came to be rather than why it is.


How it came to be:

Alliances with economies around free market principles and trade on an individual level died (except Provibloc), alliances who concentrated on securing alliance-level resources thrived and killed them. The end.

More people were willing to fight for a new region to rent out then would fight to mine Dark Ochre and sub-l4 asteroid belt income, in other words.
Quote:
There is no serious, tangible penalty to owning such massive tracts and there is no tangible penalty for invasion. I'm arguing that some method of containment is required - whether that's economic, military or some other measure.


Of course there's a penalty to owning massive tracts of land - massive sov bills.
It just so happens that a handful of alliance level resources (tech and rent) are able to cover alliance level bills.
What keeps small groups out is that, in addition to lack of individual income as an incentive (you'll love this), in an attempt to limit the size of sov empires, CCP drastically increased the cost of holding sov space to a level where only highly connected blocs could be expected to pay.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#284 - 2012-09-27 23:38:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

I'm sure those worthless ******* systems would be worth something, if only a small alliance could take control of them.

If only.... A point we can agree on.

Then prove they'de be useful to you. If they're empty and we're doing nothing with them then you shouldn't have any trouble flying around in those systems and making ISK.

Just think of it like goons paying the sov bill for you, while you just pull in tons and tons of ISK in a free system. Obviously, as you pointed out in the thread starter, they're perfectly safe because we don't give a **** who flies around in them. So go fly around and make ISK in them.

Feel free to mine, rat, run missions and anoms, whatever. It's empty, unused, and wasted space, only need you to fill it.


Memorandum of Understanding.


I ............................. [please state your name] agree to allow Touval Lysander and his highsec pubbie buddies to fly around in our space, to set up a staging POS and to mine, rat, do anoms and make isk.

We promise not to rofl-stomp his tower (which he can't defend) and give him free and safe passage through our space to export his loot to a market hub.

Further, we agree to allow him to build up his presence in our space and we agree to provide assistance to him in the event of an interdiction by a hostile force.


Signed .....................................



Yep. That'll do it....

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#285 - 2012-09-27 23:43:56 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Of course there's a penalty to owning massive tracts of land - massive sov bills.
It just so happens that a handful of alliance level resources (tech and rent) are able to cover alliance level bills.
What keeps small groups out is that they can't handle alliance-level bills. 22 bil per ****** station that refines and manufactures badly , 760m sov bil per system, 1 bil ihub to get access to gimped l4 mission equivalent income, etc.

Interesting point. I had suggested that making it more expensive might curtail the larger alliances but it would penalise smaller alliances even more so bad call here.

It was poo-pooed (whether that was fair or not, meh) but is making fees proportional to geo-size even worth considering? And maybe include fees on a per system basis whether infrastructure is present or not?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#286 - 2012-09-27 23:44:07 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

I'm sure those worthless ******* systems would be worth something, if only a small alliance could take control of them.

If only.... A point we can agree on.

Then prove they'de be useful to you. If they're empty and we're doing nothing with them then you shouldn't have any trouble flying around in those systems and making ISK.

Just think of it like goons paying the sov bill for you, while you just pull in tons and tons of ISK in a free system. Obviously, as you pointed out in the thread starter, they're perfectly safe because we don't give a **** who flies around in them. So go fly around and make ISK in them.

Feel free to mine, rat, run missions and anoms, whatever. It's empty, unused, and wasted space, only need you to fill it.


Memorandum of Understanding.


I ............................. [please state your name] agree to allow Touval Lysander and his highsec pubbie buddies to fly around in our space, to set up a staging POS and to mine, rat, do anoms and make isk.

We promise not to rofl-stomp his tower (which he can't defend) and give him free and safe passage through our space to export his loot to a market hub.

Further, we agree to allow him to build up his presence in our space and we agree to provide assistance to him in the event of an interdiction by a hostile force.


Signed .....................................



Yep. That'll do it....

RFLMFAO! Yeah, ok Mr. NPC corp carebear. It's a deal.

Just get in touch with a diplo and work out the details. I'm not the person to negotiate those sorts of details, but it's good to see you're at least starting to get the basics of how it works.

I heard TEST is renting space or something, dunno if it's true though.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#287 - 2012-09-27 23:47:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Touval Lysander wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Of course there's a penalty to owning massive tracts of land - massive sov bills.
It just so happens that a handful of alliance level resources (tech and rent) are able to cover alliance level bills.
What keeps small groups out is that they can't handle alliance-level bills. 22 bil per ****** station that refines and manufactures badly , 760m sov bil per system, 1 bil ihub to get access to gimped l4 mission equivalent income, etc.

Interesting point. I had suggested that making it more expensive might curtail the larger alliances but it would penalise smaller alliances even more so bad call here.

It was poo-pooed (whether that was fair or not, meh) but is making fees proportional to geo-size even worth considering? And maybe include fees on a per system basis whether infrastructure is present or not?


No, it's a sandbox. You don't penalize large alliance for the sake of being a large alliance. You make sure that large alliances have to abide by the same rules as smaller alliances, as it works right now.

Besides, you said yourself that the issue isn't owning the sov, so why concern yourself with that aspect of it.

You already figured out the solution to your problem in post 284.


PS: Why is it that I never see the people in charge of these alliances complaining they can't take sov.? It's always guys in NPC corps or just members of a player corp complaining, but never the guys that would actually be responcible for runnign the system, or even a corp with enough members that could afford to pay the bills.

Some guy in a ****** little 20 man corp is always complainging about large alliance, as if they could actually pay the bills for a single system. WTF?

Holy ****, the last corp you were a member of that isn't closed has 4 members in.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#288 - 2012-09-27 23:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Touval Lysander wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Of course there's a penalty to owning massive tracts of land - massive sov bills.
It just so happens that a handful of alliance level resources (tech and rent) are able to cover alliance level bills.
What keeps small groups out is that they can't handle alliance-level bills. 22 bil per ****** station that refines and manufactures badly , 760m sov bil per system, 1 bil ihub to get access to gimped l4 mission equivalent income, etc.

Interesting point. I had suggested that making it more expensive might curtail the larger alliances but it would penalise smaller alliances even more so bad call here.

It was poo-pooed (whether that was fair or not, meh) but is making fees proportional to geo-size even worth considering? And maybe include fees on a per system basis whether infrastructure is present or not?


Sov bills increasing exponentially with number of systems owned won't work because alliances are fundamentally informal creations by players that merely represent an already existing metagame social and diplomatic tie with any number of corps not really regulated by any game mechanic. An alliance can be created, merged with other alliances, diced up into discrete constellation-sized components or whatever yields the optimal sov bill result while doing nothing to reduce the out-of-game forums, mailing lists, teamspeak comms, jabber pings and diplomatic links that exist with or without a scaling sov bill. It doesn't really address the real reasons why individuals aren't taking their chances and laying a POS down in Outer Ring or whathave you (it's not worth it).
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#289 - 2012-09-27 23:58:11 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

No, it's a sandbox. You don't penalize large alliance for the sake of being a large alliance. You make sure that large alliances have to abide by the same rules as smaller alliances, as it works right now.

Besides, you said yourself that the issue isn't owning the sov, so why concern yourself with that aspect of it.

You already figured out the solution to your problem in post 284.

Not so sure if the ostrich posture we all use to describe Eve as "a sandbox" is as true or as neccessary as you're suggesting.

There's been many, many words wasted to get x nerfed, y buffed to make the sandbox sand stay cleaner. Sometimes the sand get's filtered by CCP so the concept of sand box is not inviolate.

And yeah. #284. Worth a try but I'm dreaming Roll

Funny thing though, I was TEST. Even funnier, I didn't like their space - it was booooring. Spent my spare time in PXF and jumped to 6V when I was needed.

Got too tedious waiting 24 hours between being on the team and making some coin.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#290 - 2012-09-27 23:58:12 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
It was poo-pooed (whether that was fair or not, meh) but is making fees proportional to geo-size even worth considering?

Say hello to goonswarm1, goonswarm2, goonswarm3, test1, test2, test3. We're surprisingly close neighbours, and we do a lot of the same things, at the same time, in the same places.

Odd coincidence.
Touval Lysander wrote:
And maybe include fees on a per system basis whether infrastructure is present or not?

There is.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#291 - 2012-09-28 00:00:40 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:

Memorandum of Understanding.


I ............................. [please state your name]


GTFO of nullsec with an attitude like that. No one gets that sort of treatment.

Or go to npc nullsec which is open to everyone. You can even use the stations, and they are pretty decent stations. And most of the missions are gated so you get a little more security if you want to shoot red crosses.

You are the one talking about using guerrilla tactics to force big guys out of space they can't hold. Now you want us to blue you and give you a couch?
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#292 - 2012-09-28 00:01:48 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
It was poo-pooed (whether that was fair or not, meh) but is making fees proportional to geo-size even worth considering?

Say hello to goonswarm1, goonswarm2, goonswarm3, test1, test2, test3. We're surprisingly close neighbours, and we do a lot of the same things, at the same time, in the same places.

I had thought that and asked whether being blue should be a factor as well. Guess that's probably as dumb as it sounds.

Lord Zim wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
And maybe include fees on a per system basis whether infrastructure is present or not?

There is.

OK. Didnt know that. Lol. Make the fees higher - rant!!

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2012-09-28 00:02:23 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Funny thing though, I was TEST. Even funnier, I didn't like their space - it was booooring. Spent my spare time in PXF and jumped to 6V when I was needed.

Got too tedious waiting 24 hours between being on the team and making some coin.

So you, uh, clonejumped to travel 6 jumps? And you're trying to make changes to how the entire game works?

Okay, then.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#294 - 2012-09-28 00:02:53 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:

Memorandum of Understanding.


I ............................. [please state your name]


GTFO of nullsec with an attitude like that. No one gets that sort of treatment.

Or go to npc nullsec which is open to everyone. You can even use the stations, and they are pretty decent stations. And most of the missions are gated so you get a little more security if you want to shoot red crosses.

You are the one talking about using guerrilla tactics to force big guys out of space they can't hold. Now you want us to blue you and give you a couch?


Didn't need to duck down much for that one did you? Whoooshhh.....

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#295 - 2012-09-28 00:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:

Memorandum of Understanding.


I ............................. [please state your name]


GTFO of nullsec with an attitude like that. No one gets that sort of treatment.

Or go to npc nullsec which is open to everyone. You can even use the stations, and they are pretty decent stations. And most of the missions are gated so you get a little more security if you want to shoot red crosses.

You are the one talking about using guerrilla tactics to force big guys out of space they can't hold. Now you want us to blue you and give you a couch?


Weird, he complained that alliances making other allianes blue was the problem, but that's what he expects us to do so he can play in those wasted systems.

Even weirder, those guys exist. Aren't they called renters?
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#296 - 2012-09-28 00:03:41 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Funny thing though, I was TEST. Even funnier, I didn't like their space - it was booooring. Spent my spare time in PXF and jumped to 6V when I was needed.

Got too tedious waiting 24 hours between being on the team and making some coin.

So you, uh, clonejumped to travel 6 jumps? And you're trying to make changes to how the entire game works?

Okay, then.

err.. implants.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#297 - 2012-09-28 00:08:54 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
I had thought that and asked whether being blue should be a factor as well. Guess that's probably as dumb as it sounds.

Everyone is required to have a note of all the alliances we'll be "blue" to (without being blue to them in-game), everyone must keep their overview setup to show alliance, and everyone will avoid shooting at the alliances listed on the note.

Touval Lysander wrote:
OK. Didnt know that. Lol. Make the fees higher - rant!!

It's apparent there's a lot you don't know about how nullsec works, and it's apparent you don't think any of the changes you propose through, and it's apparent you don't listen to those who do know how nullsec works.

Touval Lysander wrote:
err.. implants.

Abloo bloo bloo, harden the **** up.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#298 - 2012-09-28 00:28:55 UTC
Should it be suprising that the OP has been a member of like a dozen corps, and usually for only a month or so.
Quote:

Combat Recon Group (Closed) from 2012.01.27 23:15 to 2012.09.19 01:57.

Sebiestor Tribe [S] from 2012.01.27 23:14 to 2012.01.27 23:15.

Covert Recon Group (Closed) from 2012.01.27 22:31 to 2012.01.27 23:14.

Sebiestor Tribe [S] from 2012.01.16 20:50 to 2012.01.27 22:31.

Orbital Prototype Corporation (Closed) from 2011.12.11 21:11 to 2012.01.16 20:50.

Sebiestor Tribe [S] from 2011.12.11 21:10 to 2011.12.11 21:11.

Builders Labourers Federation [.BLF.] from 2011.11.04 22:43 to 2011.12.11 21:10.

Sebiestor Tribe [S] from 2011.11.04 22:41 to 2011.11.04 22:43.

Platinum Projectile (Closed) from 2011.11.01 22:49 to 2011.11.04 22:41.

Sebiestor Tribe [S] from 2011.10.24 04:49 to 2011.11.01 22:49.

Caustic Confluence (Closed) from 2011.07.14 01:13 to 2011.10.24 04:49.

Sebiestor Tribe [S] from 2011.07.13 00:40 to 2011.07.14 01:13.

Ad Vita Noctu [AVINT] from 2011.05.08 03:54 to 2011.07.13 00:40.

Sebiestor Tribe [S] from 2011.05.03 23:07 to 2011.05.08 03:54.

Junkyard Gunners [DYJTA] from 2011.02.28 23:14 to 2011.05.03 23:07.

Radium Jungle (Closed) from 2010.11.09 05:47 to 2011.02.28 23:14.

Hung's Army (Closed) from 2010.06.12 01:54 to 2010.11.09 05:47.

Sebiestor Tribe [S] from 2010.06.12 01:49 to 2010.06.12 01:54.

Radium Jungle (Closed) from 2010.05.03 07:13 to 2010.06.12 01:49.

Sebiestor Tribe [S] from 2010.05.03 07:12 to 2010.05.03 07:13.

VEGA EXPLORATION [V.EX] from 2010.01.17 06:34 to 2010.05.03 07:12.

Sebiestor Tribe [S] from 2010.01.17 06:33 to 2010.01.17 06:34.

Platinum Ammo Corporation [P.A.C] from 2009.09.07 06:47 to 2010.01.17 06:33.

Sebiestor Tribe [S] from 2009.08.30 13:06 to 2009.09.07 06:47.

Lysander Mineral and Manufacturing (Closed) from 2009.08.11 01:37 to 2009.08.30 13:06.

Pator Tech School [PTS] from 2009.08.04 05:37 to 2009.08.11 01:37.



I don't understand why you're complaining about sov mechanics when you don't even seem capable of being part of a corp.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#299 - 2012-09-28 00:29:25 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
I had thought that and asked whether being blue should be a factor as well. Guess that's probably as dumb as it sounds.

Everyone is required to have a note of all the alliances we'll be "blue" to (without being blue to them in-game), everyone must keep their overview setup to show alliance, and everyone will avoid shooting at the alliances listed on the note.

Touval Lysander wrote:
OK. Didnt know that. Lol. Make the fees higher - rant!!

It's apparent there's a lot you don't know about how nullsec works, and it's apparent you don't think any of the changes you propose through, and it's apparent you don't listen to those who do know how nullsec works.

Touval Lysander wrote:
err.. implants.

Abloo bloo bloo, harden the **** up.

Ahhh pull yer head in. I was telling you why I left 0.0. Got nothing to with 6 jumps, 10 jumps, 50 jumps. Not asking for a free-pass to YK ffs.

I ratted 3 days a week, ops for the other 4. Nothing in between. The point is and I'm agreeing with you on it, there was pretty well nothing else. I tried blops for awhile, spent most of time staged cos nobody would come out to play. Got so frustrated used to go fly solo with a pve fit loki to see how fast I could lose it. Did twice.

I'm not in the "don't touch me" carebear class.


And hey, gtfo, cos I never paid a sov bill to know that a system needs to be paid for doesn''t mean I don't know wtf is going on. What, you were born and knew that? Knowledge is one thing, what you do with it is the difference between us all.

And anyway, how much sov YOU own? gtfo.

And what, because someone else set up the space you're in and you're in it means you da man. gtfo.

And what? Show me a list of the last 0.0 alliance you set up and ran? Yeah sure. Join the winning team and claim descendency and an encyclopeadic, untouchable knowledge about all the things. gtfo.

Difference between you and me - I question. You just regurgitate.

I'm done here.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#300 - 2012-09-28 00:33:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Should it be suprising that the OP has been a member of like a dozen corps, and usually for only a month or so.
[quote]
Combat Recon Group (Closed) from 2012.01.27 23:15 to 2012.09.19 01:57.
Covert Recon Group (Closed) from 2012.01.27 22:31 to 2012.01.27 23:14.
Orbital Prototype Corporation (Closed) from 2011.12.11 21:11 to 2012.01.16 20:50.
Builders Labourers Federation [.BLF.] from 2011.11.04 22:43 to 2011.12.11 21:10.
Platinum Projectile (Closed) from 2011.11.01 22:49 to 2011.11.04 22:41.
Caustic Confluence (Closed) from 2011.07.14 01:13 to 2011.10.24 04:49.
***Ad Vita Noctu [AVINT] from 2011.05.08 03:54 to 2011.07.13 00:40.
***Junkyard Gunners [DYJTA] from 2011.02.28 23:14 to 2011.05.03 23:07.
Radium Jungle (Closed) from 2010.11.09 05:47 to 2011.02.28 23:14.
Hung's Army (Closed) from 2010.06.12 01:54 to 2010.11.09 05:47.
Radium Jungle (Closed) from 2010.05.03 07:13 to 2010.06.12 01:49.
***VEGA EXPLORATION [V.EX] from 2010.01.17 06:34 to 2010.05.03 07:12.
Platinum Ammo Corporation [P.A.C] from 2009.09.07 06:47 to 2010.01.17 06:33.
Lysander Mineral and Manufacturing (Closed) from 2009.08.11 01:37 to 2009.08.30 13:06.

I don't understand why you're complaining about sov mechanics when you don't even seem capable of being part of a corp.

Firstly I took out all the NPC switch corps.

All other corps apart from the 3 marked where mine to produce BPC, BPO's. I had 8 chars. Towers in lowsec building caps etc.

3 corps marked were all 0.0 too btw.

Anyone that knows anything would know that moving your OWN ALTS around as they skill up to suit each of the corp structures is obvious.

Your point? That's 3+ years. (and the last 2 were break off corps so I could get paid to snoop around for iskies)

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."