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Dev blog: Brains! NOM NOM!

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Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#701 - 2012-09-27 14:48:19 UTC
Eloque wrote:

That being said, I think that hoping for genetic AI, neural net AI, adapative AI or any such AI in a game like Eve, is not going to happen. So, I applaud changes that mimic these things. A real strategic AI would not be bothered at all by the aritifical concept of "Aggro". I would make decisions based on the constantly changing battelfield around it.


In 99% of cases the sensible decision would be warping out the whole fleet when facing a pimped up mission runner ship with unbreakable tank. You seriously want all missions emptied out after the first seconds?

Maybe all those fled mission NPCs should simply accumulate somewhere and then all blob on an unlucky missionrunner or plexer when it seems opportune.

This sums up 90% of PvP btw, so maybe that's really the way it should happen.

Quote:

I do not like knowing exactly when a respawn is going to happen.
I do not like knowing exactly what a plex is going to contain.


Nothing of that has anything to do with AI change. In fact FoxFour made a point of assuring us that for the moment nothing BUT the AI is planned to be changed.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#702 - 2012-09-27 15:07:48 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Adigard wrote:
[quote=Darth Gustav]

or C) they weren't aware of the fairly obvious unintentional changes that should have been fairly evident... and haven't looked at the thread yet. This isn't the case. We have a CSM post in this very thread.


That doesn't mean that CSM (or any of them) are familiar with high end exploration content (like FoxFour). I know loads of Allaince bigwigs that wouldn't know the difference between a Fleet Staging Point and a hole in the ground lol. Those changes are only "fairly evident" to those of us who do exploration as a main activity, which is why we're trying to warn ccp about it.

Sure, the csm talks about "wanting more people in 10/10s" (pretty good evidence that not too many of them are familiar with the things, DEDs got nerfed years ago and drop fewer OPEs and such, where they used to be sure income they are now a crap shoot), but it doesn't seem like they understand at all how this particular piecemeal change could make them totally undoable.

Maybe the way to persuade them is to tell them what this change could do to the Officer mod market (if you think fitting that Titan or SC is a pain NOW, wait till high end ded's kill everyone who even tries to do them LOL).


I would not worry too much about the 10/10 plexes.
There is zero doubt that changes are afoot to accommodate the null sec plex reunners, be it making them substantially easier, or introducing a separate aggro slider for null which will be set at a much lower setting than high sec.

I think that you have the views of the CSM a little wrong. They think that high sec has too much money, not all Eve players.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#703 - 2012-09-27 15:09:34 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Eloque wrote:

That being said, I think that hoping for genetic AI, neural net AI, adapative AI or any such AI in a game like Eve, is not going to happen. So, I applaud changes that mimic these things. A real strategic AI would not be bothered at all by the aritifical concept of "Aggro". I would make decisions based on the constantly changing battelfield around it.


In 99% of cases the sensible decision would be warping out the whole fleet when facing a pimped up mission runner ship with unbreakable tank. You seriously want all missions emptied out after the first seconds?

Maybe all those fled mission NPCs should simply accumulate somewhere and then all blob on an unlucky missionrunner or plexer when it seems opportune.

This sums up 90% of PvP btw, so maybe that's really the way it should happen.

Quote:

I do not like knowing exactly when a respawn is going to happen.
I do not like knowing exactly what a plex is going to contain.


Nothing of that has anything to do with AI change. In fact FoxFour made a point of assuring us that for the moment nothing BUT the AI is planned to be changed.

Actually CCP have previously said they DO want exactly that (all NPCs to warp off if they think death is likely). This would force PvErs to fit warp disruptors and go towards CCPs goal for PvE fits to = PvP fits.

Unfortunately, the carebear tears were too great so they can only take baby steps.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#704 - 2012-09-27 15:21:41 UTC
Lallante wrote:

Nothing of that has anything to do with AI change. In fact FoxFour made a point of assuring us that for the moment nothing BUT the AI is planned to be changed.

Actually CCP have previously said they DO want exactly that (all NPCs to warp off if they think death is likely). This would force PvErs to fit warp disruptors and go towards CCPs goal for PvE fits to = PvP fits.

Unfortunately, the carebear tears were too great so they can only take baby steps.[/quote]

CCP said they want that eventually. This AI change isn't doing that, which is the whole point, some of us (who aren't short sighted haters with chips on our shoulders) what good changes to all aspects of EVE to occur, what we don't want are haphazard rushed , ill-concieved changes just for the sake of change.

Just changing the AI in the way they describe (to content like missions, anomalies, belts and plexes) instead of doing the kinds of comprehensive re-design changes they need to is a bad idea that will not only affect PVE, but PVP (turning null sec rats into Null sec concord) , null player income (and it's null players driving the economy by using the isk they make to buy ships that then die) and the whole EVE market.

As players we should demand good change, but some people can't see past their own narrow interests to do that.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#705 - 2012-09-27 15:23:57 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Adigard wrote:
[quote=Darth Gustav]

or C) they weren't aware of the fairly obvious unintentional changes that should have been fairly evident... and haven't looked at the thread yet. This isn't the case. We have a CSM post in this very thread.


That doesn't mean that CSM (or any of them) are familiar with high end exploration content (like FoxFour). I know loads of Allaince bigwigs that wouldn't know the difference between a Fleet Staging Point and a hole in the ground lol. Those changes are only "fairly evident" to those of us who do exploration as a main activity, which is why we're trying to warn ccp about it.

Sure, the csm talks about "wanting more people in 10/10s" (pretty good evidence that not too many of them are familiar with the things, DEDs got nerfed years ago and drop fewer OPEs and such, where they used to be sure income they are now a crap shoot), but it doesn't seem like they understand at all how this particular piecemeal change could make them totally undoable.

Maybe the way to persuade them is to tell them what this change could do to the Officer mod market (if you think fitting that Titan or SC is a pain NOW, wait till high end ded's kill everyone who even tries to do them LOL).


I would not worry too much about the 10/10 plexes.
There is zero doubt that changes are afoot to accommodate the null sec plex reunners, be it making them substantially easier, or introducing a separate aggro slider for null which will be set at a much lower setting than high sec.

I think that you have the views of the CSM a little wrong. They think that high sec has too much money, not all Eve players.



I'm sorry, but that's just paranoid thinking.

It's fine that you choose to live in High sec (the easy mode of EVE), I'm an "All-Sec" player personally and don't feel like someone is just "out to get me" the way you seem to.

You keep talking about some "aggro slider", where is the proof of this?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#706 - 2012-09-27 15:41:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:



You keep talking about some "aggro slider", where is the proof of this?


Fox Four described this new mechanism in the dev blog.
I dunno, when the dev describes the mechanism, kinda pretty solid proof.

And the dev also describes the concept of the slider is to easily change the aggo switching and the chances that drones will be attacked.

It is a natural extension that the dev's can quietly create sliders for each sec area, and have different settings for each area, and no one is the wiser for it. The beauty of it (from the null sec zealot perspective) is that there can be complete deniability of the existence of different sliders, and the different settings never brought up in any blog, or CSM minutes, or anywhere.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#707 - 2012-09-27 15:44:09 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Adigard wrote:
[quote=Darth Gustav]

or C) they weren't aware of the fairly obvious unintentional changes that should have been fairly evident... and haven't looked at the thread yet. This isn't the case. We have a CSM post in this very thread.


That doesn't mean that CSM (or any of them) are familiar with high end exploration content (like FoxFour). I know loads of Allaince bigwigs that wouldn't know the difference between a Fleet Staging Point and a hole in the ground lol. Those changes are only "fairly evident" to those of us who do exploration as a main activity, which is why we're trying to warn ccp about it.

Sure, the csm talks about "wanting more people in 10/10s" (pretty good evidence that not too many of them are familiar with the things, DEDs got nerfed years ago and drop fewer OPEs and such, where they used to be sure income they are now a crap shoot), but it doesn't seem like they understand at all how this particular piecemeal change could make them totally undoable.

Maybe the way to persuade them is to tell them what this change could do to the Officer mod market (if you think fitting that Titan or SC is a pain NOW, wait till high end ded's kill everyone who even tries to do them LOL).


I would not worry too much about the 10/10 plexes.
There is zero doubt that changes are afoot to accommodate the null sec plex reunners, be it making them substantially easier, or introducing a separate aggro slider for null which will be set at a much lower setting than high sec.

I think that you have the views of the CSM a little wrong. They think that high sec has too much money, not all Eve players.



I'm sorry, but that's just paranoid thinking.

It's fine that you choose to live in High sec (the easy mode of EVE), I'm an "All-Sec" player personally and don't feel like someone is just "out to get me" the way you seem to.

You keep talking about some "aggro slider", where is the proof of this?


And as for paranoid thinking, I just track the comments and actions of the dev's. The pattern is obvious. High sec is on its way out. It is death by a thousand cuts, but there is clearly an agenda to decimate high sec profitability.
Ghazu
#708 - 2012-09-27 15:55:50 UTC
oh god and goons are cia, it's all a mysterious :conspiracy:

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#709 - 2012-09-27 16:01:39 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


And as for paranoid thinking, I just track the comments and actions of the dev's. The pattern is obvious. High sec is on its way out. It is death by a thousand cuts, but there is clearly an agenda to decimate high sec profitability.


AFAIK Mission running is the primary ISK generator right now, so that shouldn't come as a big surprise.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#710 - 2012-09-27 16:47:36 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


And as for paranoid thinking, I just track the comments and actions of the dev's. The pattern is obvious. High sec is on its way out. It is death by a thousand cuts, but there is clearly an agenda to decimate high sec profitability.


AFAIK Mission running is the primary ISK generator right now, so that shouldn't come as a big surprise.


So what if mission running is the highest ISK generator? I am not saying it is, but so what???
High sec income, per account, is barely enough to pay for a plex, let alone expensive ships.
Are the richest players in high sec? No. The trillionaires reside in null.

I listened to the latest state of the union for Test. They had Shadoo do a section talking about warfare.
He went on about thanking people about throwing 700 million ISK ships into the grinder, and how he is monkeying around with a 1.5 billion ISK ship fit that will become a STANDARD FLEET FIT.
He also went on about how they wiped out a 256 pilot fleet of -A-'s, ALL TENGU's. For most high sec players, that would be a crushing loss. For null sec players, it is chump change.
It is clear that null sec pilots have way way too much ISK.

The reason that null sec attacks high sec is the pathological need to dominate someone, and given that most of null is blue to one another, it is natural these clowns come after high sec, with the aid of a cadre within CCP.

Oh, and BTW, I generated enormous wealth (by high sec standards, not null), when I was in FCON.
Today, I eke out enough to pay for my monthly plex, and that is it.
But the null sec zealot group want to take that away as well. They feel that under no circumstances should a high sec player make enough to pay for their account with ingame money.
Joker Dronemaster
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#711 - 2012-09-27 19:26:55 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


And as for paranoid thinking, I just track the comments and actions of the dev's. The pattern is obvious. High sec is on its way out. It is death by a thousand cuts, but there is clearly an agenda to decimate high sec profitability.


AFAIK Mission running is the primary ISK generator right now, so that shouldn't come as a big surprise.


So what if mission running is the highest ISK generator? I am not saying it is, but so what???
High sec income, per account, is barely enough to pay for a plex, let alone expensive ships.
Are the richest players in high sec? No. The trillionaires reside in null.

I listened to the latest state of the union for Test. They had Shadoo do a section talking about warfare.
He went on about thanking people about throwing 700 million ISK ships into the grinder, and how he is monkeying around with a 1.5 billion ISK ship fit that will become a STANDARD FLEET FIT.
He also went on about how they wiped out a 256 pilot fleet of -A-'s, ALL TENGU's. For most high sec players, that would be a crushing loss. For null sec players, it is chump change.
It is clear that null sec pilots have way way too much ISK.

The reason that null sec attacks high sec is the pathological need to dominate someone, and given that most of null is blue to one another, it is natural these clowns come after high sec, with the aid of a cadre within CCP.

Oh, and BTW, I generated enormous wealth (by high sec standards, not null), when I was in FCON.
Today, I eke out enough to pay for my monthly plex, and that is it.
But the null sec zealot group want to take that away as well. They feel that under no circumstances should a high sec player make enough to pay for their account with ingame money.



So......much.........fail.........don't.........know............where.........to.........start........ *BRAIN EXPLOSION*


Speaking as someone who has spent quite a bit of time in null i can say that nullsec players are not the richest in eve. I carrier rat in a maxed Thanatos hitting 1875 DPS, which roughly equates to 20-25 mill bounty ticks when pinging forsaken hubs. Losing 700 mill to the meat grinder you described is essentially 9.33333 hours of my game time. And that's assuming I am not competing with anyone else for the best Anoms in the system, the system isn't getting hit with roaming gangs every 30 minutes, and some goon jackass hasn't left a cyno toon cloaked AFK in the system. My realistic income is less than half of that most of the time due to aforementioned reasons. Now consider that I'm going to lose 100 mill a week on average in ships due to PvP losses for home defense..........(people tend to primary lodgi and talos which is primarily what I fly in Null PVP) and that extra 700 million starts to sound rather painful doesn't it. The sad part is that I'm STILL in the upper income bracket for nullsec players; many have to scrape by on half of what I make.

All that isk I made has gone to market/indy characters and has spent very little time in my hands.

This is why DED plexes are so important for many in null. The rare occasion when you or your group get a good drop out of one means several hours less grinding or that you can replace a particularly painful loss. (I took a lot more than 1 complex to replace that.)

All in all.......... I take on a level of risk that is exponentially higher than yours. So why am I making a similar amount?
Joker Dronemaster
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#712 - 2012-09-27 19:57:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Joker Dronemaster
Lallante wrote:
Useless troll post.


Roll

No matter how you slice it I am going to have to sacrifice tank or DPS in some form to compensate for this change, which is going to directly affect my income and is something no other weapon system is going to have to do.

I'm not going to call this the NGE, but a change that leaves the "pet" class gimped in relation to everyone else in the game for an extended period of time is really ringing bells.

Heres an idea......... Maybe we can call this the PvE Content "Upgrade" and the next iteration the Content "Revamp" and in two years when they finally push out the final changes that are supposed to bring everything in line; well call that the Content "Balance" Making all the dev cycles the err..........*cough*"Content"*cough* Upgrade/Revamp/Balance or C/U/R/B for short.............

It would also be really nice if I could log in and test the changes for myself.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#713 - 2012-09-27 20:13:36 UTC
Joker Dronemaster wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Useless troll post.


Roll

No matter how you slice it I am going to have to sacrifice tank or DPS in some form to compensate for this change, which is going to directly affect my income and is something no other weapon system is going to have to do.


Drake, Tengu and Hurricane pilots aren't forced into that choice by this particular change, but the changes that will force them to make those decisions are coming out at the same time that this change is.

Good thing that nobody flies those ships, eh?

I'm also looking forward to being able to log in and test the changes, although :Mac user: so who knows when that will be...

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Joker Dronemaster
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#714 - 2012-09-27 21:19:24 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Joker Dronemaster wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Useless troll post.


Roll

No matter how you slice it I am going to have to sacrifice tank or DPS in some form to compensate for this change, which is going to directly affect my income and is something no other weapon system is going to have to do.


Drake, Tengu and Hurricane pilots aren't forced into that choice by this particular change, but the changes that will force them to make those decisions are coming out at the same time that this change is.

Good thing that nobody flies those ships, eh?

I'm also looking forward to being able to log in and test the changes, although :Mac user: so who knows when that will be...


What? I never read anywhere that the new AI will be able to randomly and permanently destroy launcher/turrets off player ships unless they start fitting useless ECM mods(which reduce; not eliminate the chance btw). But since you just assured me that this is an equal nerf I'm going to assume I just missed it somewhere. Silly me............
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#715 - 2012-09-27 21:25:42 UTC
Joker Dronemaster wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Joker Dronemaster wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Useless troll post.


Roll

No matter how you slice it I am going to have to sacrifice tank or DPS in some form to compensate for this change, which is going to directly affect my income and is something no other weapon system is going to have to do.


Drake, Tengu and Hurricane pilots aren't forced into that choice by this particular change, but the changes that will force them to make those decisions are coming out at the same time that this change is.

Good thing that nobody flies those ships, eh?

I'm also looking forward to being able to log in and test the changes, although :Mac user: so who knows when that will be...


What? I never read anywhere that the new AI will be able to randomly and permanently destroy launcher/turrets off player ships unless they start fitting useless ECM mods(which reduce; not eliminate the chance btw). But since you just assured me that this is an equal nerf I'm going to assume I just missed it somewhere. Silly me............


Notice that I didn't quote that part. I quoted the part where you said "I am going to have to sacrifice tank or DPS in some form to compensate," which other pilots of far more popular ships will have to do in response to other changes coming down the pipeline.

That's not an argument against the need for a serious overhaul of drone AI and UI, nor is it a claim that there's nothing wrong with this feature--I don't know, I've never been able to get on Duality to test it. It's just pointing out that drone boat pilots will have a lot of company as they redo their fits to accommodate the New Normal this winter.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#716 - 2012-09-28 11:20:05 UTC
Joker Dronemaster wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Useless troll post.


Roll

No matter how you slice it I am going to have to sacrifice tank or DPS in some form to compensate for this change, which is going to directly affect my income and is something no other weapon system is going to have to do.

I'm not going to call this the NGE, but a change that leaves the "pet" class gimped in relation to everyone else in the game for an extended period of time is really ringing bells.

Heres an idea......... Maybe we can call this the PvE Content "Upgrade" and the next iteration the Content "Revamp" and in two years when they finally push out the final changes that are supposed to bring everything in line; well call that the Content "Balance" Making all the dev cycles the err..........*cough*"Content"*cough* Upgrade/Revamp/Balance or C/U/R/B for short.............

It would also be really nice if I could log in and test the changes for myself.


YEs but noone cares nor should they care that you will have to sacrifice tank or DPS to compensate for this change.

Its called adaption. Welcome to Eve.

When I started playing "tracking" wasnt even a thing and there was no armor tanking setups - imagine adapting from that!

PS: The idea that this gimps droneboats is simply wrong. Have you ever PvEd in a wormhole? You can use drones fine if you manage them (and remote reps) properly.
Rengerel en Distel
#717 - 2012-09-28 12:26:07 UTC
Lallante wrote:
Joker Dronemaster wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Useless troll post.


Roll

No matter how you slice it I am going to have to sacrifice tank or DPS in some form to compensate for this change, which is going to directly affect my income and is something no other weapon system is going to have to do.

I'm not going to call this the NGE, but a change that leaves the "pet" class gimped in relation to everyone else in the game for an extended period of time is really ringing bells.

Heres an idea......... Maybe we can call this the PvE Content "Upgrade" and the next iteration the Content "Revamp" and in two years when they finally push out the final changes that are supposed to bring everything in line; well call that the Content "Balance" Making all the dev cycles the err..........*cough*"Content"*cough* Upgrade/Revamp/Balance or C/U/R/B for short.............

It would also be really nice if I could log in and test the changes for myself.


YEs but noone cares nor should they care that you will have to sacrifice tank or DPS to compensate for this change.

Its called adaption. Welcome to Eve.

When I started playing "tracking" wasnt even a thing and there was no armor tanking setups - imagine adapting from that!

PS: The idea that this gimps droneboats is simply wrong. Have you ever PvEd in a wormhole? You can use drones fine if you manage them (and remote reps) properly.


You can do a lot of things if you manage it correctly, that doesn't make it anywhere near optimal. You see a lot more drake/tengu WH fits than you do ishtars or other drone boats, simply for the fact that it's easier.

I'm not saying that drone boats will be useless by any means, but I think it will hurt younger players doing lower level missions more, as they'll lose more drones. It will also hurt those boats that rely on heavy drones, as once they get aggro, they're toast. Turret and missile boats won't have to make any of the same kinds of sacrifices, so will become the better choice for easier gameplay.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#718 - 2012-09-28 12:27:30 UTC
Lallante wrote:


PS: The idea that this gimps droneboats is simply wrong. Have you ever PvEd in a wormhole? You can use drones fine if you manage them (and remote reps) properly.


but this is a point some of you "yay changes" people don't understand.

Wormholes and Incursions were BUILT around the idea of their AI's behavior. Older PVE content (missions, explorations sites, belt rats ect ect ect. This is why incursion and wormhole sites tend to have fewer rats, because they are more powerful.

This is why some of us are screaming "ccp, hit the brakes, unintended consequences ahead" because older PVE content isn't balanced around smarted AI like incursions and wormholes are. I'm honestly having a hard time understanding what people don't understand that.....
Rengerel en Distel
#719 - 2012-09-28 12:28:49 UTC
Joker Dronemaster wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Joker Dronemaster wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Useless troll post.


Roll

No matter how you slice it I am going to have to sacrifice tank or DPS in some form to compensate for this change, which is going to directly affect my income and is something no other weapon system is going to have to do.


Drake, Tengu and Hurricane pilots aren't forced into that choice by this particular change, but the changes that will force them to make those decisions are coming out at the same time that this change is.

Good thing that nobody flies those ships, eh?

I'm also looking forward to being able to log in and test the changes, although :Mac user: so who knows when that will be...


What? I never read anywhere that the new AI will be able to randomly and permanently destroy launcher/turrets off player ships unless they start fitting useless ECM mods(which reduce; not eliminate the chance btw). But since you just assured me that this is an equal nerf I'm going to assume I just missed it somewhere. Silly me............


Heavy missiles are being nerfed, as well as the hurricane. So what he meant is that 3 of the most popular mission ships are all being nerfed as well as drone boats. Drake and Tengus can switch to HAM fits, and the hurricane has other fits that can be used, it's mostly just the drone boats that take a hit that can't be worked around by fitting changes.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Travis Wells
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#720 - 2012-09-28 12:36:17 UTC
Let's try this scenario, if a dude was mining in nullsec, say with a bot, so bot mining, and you warp to him in say a stealth bomber, the rats will deagress the bot and kill the bomber instead because that's "more engaging" pve. That totally makes sense, buff botting.