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The future of Community and CCL

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ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#621 - 2012-09-27 19:40:55 UTC
Hi Corina,

Yes absolutely - we welcome all constructive feedback!

As long as folks don't start abusing it, then there is no problem that I can see; although of course that's up to CCP as it's their workload we're talking about.

The only potential problem as CCP Gargant said earlier is that there is no feedback loop built into the report system.
If you want to to get feedback about actions that have been taken, (on a post of your own of course!) then the best bet is to raise a petition under the Other -> Community category.

Thanks and fly safe!

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#622 - 2012-10-02 02:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
There's apparently a rule against posting killboard links in GD:

ISD Suvetar wrote:
Hi,

Please note that posting killboard links is not permitted, so I've taken the liberty of clearing them up in this thread.
I'd normally say 'Thanks and fly safe' but I suspect things are going to get colourful for you, so I'm going to say:

Thanks and be careful!*

*and follow the forum rules Pirate



However, there's also this:

ISD Praetoxx wrote:
Hmm, that is strange. The Forum Rules make no mention of such a rule against posting killmail links. Maybe you should re-read the rules to ensure you don't give out incorrect information. It could make you look like you don't know what you are talking about! Pirate

The context in which said killmail links are posted is what matters.


Either you're enforcing a rule which, to my knowledge, is not mentioned outside of C&P, or the policy 'exists' but it's nowhere to be found, or it simply doesn't exist. Can we get some clarification on this apparent rule against linking killmails?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#623 - 2012-10-02 13:34:38 UTC
Hi Andski,

Thanks for bringing to my attention.

The rule regarding Killboard posts is a specific extension of the no trolling rule as CCP Spitfire states here:

Crime and punishment rules

As that's posted by CCP, it can be considered as Canon for all purposes on all of the child forums here.
I've cleared this up with my guys and we've escalated this to CCP to ask if it can be put in the full forum rules list, especially as some of the newer CCL team members weren't aware.

Sorry for the confusion!

tl,dr; You're only allowed to post killmails on Crime and Punishment, as long as you follow the rules.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Pipa Porto
#624 - 2012-10-02 14:01:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
ISD Suvetar wrote:
tl,dr; You're only allowed to post killmails on Crime and Punishment, as long as you follow the rules.


I don't see anything in that post that says or implies that.

CCP Spitfire wrote:
Before posting in the Crime & Punishment forum, we ask that you please take a look at the following rules:

Killmails

The posting of killmails is permitted,


It simply says that posting killmails is allowed in C&P subject to certain restrictions. Nowhere does it say anything about any other boards.

Nor do I see anything in the forum rules about killmails, nor do I see how posting killmails constitutes "Trolling" as defined by the forum rules.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#625 - 2012-10-02 15:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Hi Andski,

Thanks for bringing to my attention.

The rule regarding Killboard posts is a specific extension of the no trolling rule as CCP Spitfire states here:

Crime and punishment rules

As that's posted by CCP, it can be considered as Canon for all purposes on all of the child forums here.
I've cleared this up with my guys and we've escalated this to CCP to ask if it can be put in the full forum rules list, especially as some of the newer CCL team members weren't aware.

Sorry for the confusion!

tl,dr; You're only allowed to post killmails on Crime and Punishment, as long as you follow the rules.


How in the world does posting a killmail even resemble trolling? A guy asks "hey why does this API verified Chimera on eve-kill show 8 highs, 8 mids and 8 lows" and the killmail link gets removed from his post because he's apparently 'trolling' by asking why a popular EVE-related site is rendering a killmail inaccurately.

A blanket ban against killboard links on the forums does nothing towards any goal besides, possibly, shielding players from the fact that players shoot other players in "eve online," the "cold harsh universe." It only forces people to beat around the bush when trying to point out, for example, why titans were ridiculously overpowered when they'd pop afterburning frigates or solo Catalysts popping Hulks or whatever. Nothing can possibly be gained from a blanket ban against killboard links on the forums.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#626 - 2012-10-02 15:22:00 UTC
CCP Spitfire wrote:

Killmails

The posting of killmails is permitted, however following criteria must be met:

a) The name of the victim must be removed or covered up
b) The killmail must be posted along with constructive text/content. This means no posting new threads with simply a killmail in it without a comment.
c) The killmail must be posted directly into the post and may not be a link to a third-party site.

The reason behind these rules was a spate of threads seeking to embarrass other players, such as those with poor set-ups.

Killmails are not supported by us and given the ease of forgery, threads with killmails in them tended to descend into arguments about the veracity of them.

To foster a better community spirit, killmails will be removed from any post that do not follow the above rules.


I've italicized the relevant parts of CCP Spitfire's post to show why we consider Killmail posts as trolling.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about actions taken against other posts here, but you'll see that I've addressed that Chimera thread now.

As I mentioned before, I've raised the question about Killmails with my superiors at CCP. Until they've clarified what they want to happen, I ask you to please follow the rules that have been stated here.

You may also raise it directly with CCP by sending a petition in via the Other -> Community category.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Pipa Porto
#627 - 2012-10-02 16:03:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
ISD Suvetar wrote:
CCP Spitfire wrote:

Killmails

The posting of killmails is permitted, however following criteria must be met:

a) The name of the victim must be removed or covered up
b) The killmail must be posted along with constructive text/content. This means no posting new threads with simply a killmail in it without a comment.
c) The killmail must be posted directly into the post and may not be a link to a third-party site.

The reason behind these rules was a spate of threads seeking to embarrass other players, such as those with poor set-ups.

Killmails are not supported by us and given the ease of forgery, threads with killmails in them tended to descend into arguments about the veracity of them.

To foster a better community spirit, killmails will be removed from any post that do not follow the above rules.


I've italicized the relevant parts of CCP Spitfire's post to show why we consider Killmail posts as trolling.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about actions taken against other posts here, but you'll see that I've addressed that Chimera thread now.

As I mentioned before, I've raised the question about Killmails with my superiors at CCP. Until they've clarified what they want to happen, I ask you to please follow the rules that have been stated here.

You may also raise it directly with CCP by sending a petition in via the Other -> Community category.


You're forgetting the line that sets the scope for the rest of the post.
CCP Spitfire wrote:
Before posting in the Crime & Punishment forum


Since when can you, as an ISD volunteer, create rules?

ISD Praetoxx wrote:
Hmm, that is strange. The Forum Rules make no mention of such a rule against posting killmail links. Maybe you should re-read the rules to ensure you don't give out incorrect information. It could make you look like you don't know what you are talking about! Pirate

The context in which said killmail links are posted is what matters.


It's clear that there's no internal rule prohibiting positing killmails, and as there's no public rule prohibiting them, where's this rule on killmails that you're claiming exists?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#628 - 2012-10-02 17:33:40 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Since when can you, as an ISD volunteer, create rules?
Our ISD CCL team interprets the forum rules to their best knowledge and intent. It is perfectly valid for the CCL team to act in accordance with their understanding of the forum rules and to contact the EVE Community team for confirmation that this interpretation is correct. This is not considered creating rules - especially not when it is mentioned that the EVE Community team has been contacted for confirmation or assistance.


Discussions around killmails usually belong to the Crime & Punishment forum channel and there we have special rules additional to the general forum rules.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
Pipa Porto
#629 - 2012-10-02 18:35:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
CCP Phantom wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Since when can you, as an ISD volunteer, create rules?
Our ISD CCL team interprets the forum rules to their best knowledge and intent. It is perfectly valid for the CCL team to act in accordance with their understanding of the forum rules and to contact the EVE Community team for confirmation that this interpretation is correct. This is not considered creating rules - especially not when it is mentioned that the EVE Community team has been contacted for confirmation or assistance.


ISD Suvetar wrote:
I ask you to please follow the rules that have been stated here.


Might want to tell your ISDs that.

Besides that, the publicly available rules are quite clear with regards to killmails outside C&P (that there aren't any), and there don't appear to be any internal rules that contradict that (as of ISD Praetoxx's post).

ISD Praetoxx wrote:
Hmm, that is strange. The Forum Rules make no mention of such a rule against posting killmail links. Maybe you should re-read the rules to ensure you don't give out incorrect information. It could make you look like you don't know what you are talking about! Pirate

The context in which said killmail links are posted is what matters.


Quote:
Discussions around killmails usually belong to the Crime & Punishment forum channel and there we have special rules additional to the general forum rules.


Really? I think there's plenty of topics where killmails would be germane to the discussion that would not fit in C&P.

Besides that, we are not talking about killmails posted in C&P for which there are rules. Nobody's saying there aren't rules for posting killmails in C&P. What we're questioning is that the idea that one subforum's rules magically spreads to all the rest.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#630 - 2012-10-02 19:29:29 UTC
Hi Pipa,

I'm only going to comment on the parts that are relevant to CCL here.


  • I don't create the rules.


I had thought that my statement 'I ask you to please follow the rules that have been stated here' would have been taken in reference to the rules stated in in CCP Spitfire's post, I am sorry that it didn't come across clearly.

As I mentioned earlier, I have now raised this issue with the CCL team, not everyone was aware of rules against Killboard posts, I have raised this internally now so hopefully there will be no more misunderstandings.

I apologise again on behalf of the CCL team, the information given by ISD Praetoxx was incorrect.

Thanks and fly safe.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
None ofthe Above
#631 - 2012-10-03 03:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
If the C&P rules stating: "The posting of killmails is permitted" is meant in the "exception proves the rule"* sense, then CCP should probably update the forums rules to say "posting of killmails are not permitted except within C&P, and then only if the special rules there are followed" or somesuch wording.

As it is, it appears that the no killmail policy was an unwritten rule or born of a misinterpretation.

Before you do that, you might evaluate whether it is really necessary. After all there might be perfectly valid reasons to post killmails outside of C&P. Like say discussions of accuracy around seemingly impossible kills, just as a wild example.


Crime and Punishment Rules:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6302&find=unread

Forum rules:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Forum_rules

Anyway... as you all decide, but I hope you can see why some folk might be surprised by this rule.

Oh and thanks ISD and CCP for keeping this thread open. A place to discuss such issues really helps, IMHO.

*FYI - This is the only accurate sense of the "exception proves the rule", meaning that an explicit exception actually proves the rule exists. Not the usual glib dismissal of counter-evidence that it is usually used for.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#632 - 2012-10-03 11:39:46 UTC
Can I post Killmails in general discussion?

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#633 - 2012-10-03 12:07:18 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
Discussions around killmails usually belong to the Crime & Punishment forum channel and there we have special rules additional to the general forum rules.

You still have not clarified the rules outside C+P. Are killmails and killboard links allowed in Warfare and Tactics? Wormholes? CAOD?

Also, there is something I don't get. Last expansion, you made it easy to share killmails ingame, just by linking them in chat. What sense does it make to make something easier ingame, but disallow it on the forums?

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#634 - 2012-10-03 12:40:53 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
Good afternoon,

To answer your question specifically, Rodyas:
You and your fellow forum users are not allowed to post killmails, killboard links or screenshots of killboards in General Discussion.

To expand on that answer, this restriction extends to the whole of the forums with the exception of Crime and Punishment where you may post killmails but not killboard links or screenshots of killboards, following the rules stated in this post.

We realise there is not a specific rule forbidding posting killmails, killboard links or screenshots of killboards in the Forum rules, and we have asked CCP if they will clarify or formalize this particular rule in writing.

In the mean time, CCP Spitfire has stated in two places here and here that Killmails are considered a form of trolling.

CCP Spitfire wrote:
Posting killmails, killboard links or screenshots of killboards will be considered as trolling or off-topic, and subject to removal or warning.


There is a specific rule that forbids Trolling (See the Forum Rules number 7) so therefore the removal of killmails, links to killboards or screenshots of killboards extends to the entire forum, with the exception of the specific case allowed in Crime and Punishment.

As I've said before, we are enforcing CCPs decision in the matter, not making the rules up ourselves. Any further discussion needs to be raised with CCP. Please use the Other -> Community petition category to do so.

Thanks and fly safe.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#635 - 2012-10-03 13:15:36 UTC
ISD Suvetar wrote:
In the mean time, CCP Spitfire has stated in two places here and here that Killmails are considered a form of trolling.

CCP Spitfire wrote:
Posting killmails, killboard links or screenshots of killboards will be considered as trolling or off-topic, and subject to removal or warning.

He also says " Absolutely no out of character (OOC) comments or references are allowed." right above it. So I assume you will enforce that rule in General Discussion too? To the roleplay waggon, everyone!

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#636 - 2012-10-03 14:09:18 UTC
Are you guys going to remove the restriction on posting on CAOD with alts since you're just moving all of the bad NPC alt threads there?

I mean that restriction exists for a reason doesn't it?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Pipa Porto
#637 - 2012-10-03 14:10:51 UTC
Andski wrote:
Are you guys going to remove the restriction on posting on CAOD with alts since you're just moving all of the bad NPC alt threads there?

I mean that restriction exists for a reason doesn't it?


It exists to prevent NPC posting in GD, of course.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#638 - 2012-10-06 00:03:33 UTC
Is it just me, or are people trying to incite another forum protest today?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Pipa Porto
#639 - 2012-10-06 01:27:04 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Is it just me, or are people trying to incite another forum protest today?


Who knows. But the quality of ISD posts and moderation has been dropping again.

WOLOLOLOL Rules for Subdforums are applicable to all Forums.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#640 - 2012-10-06 02:18:31 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Is it just me, or are people trying to incite another forum protest today?


Who knows. But the quality of ISD posts and moderation has been dropping again.


Agreed & it's happening very rapidly.

CCP; You really need to get this under control on a permanent basis or you could possibly end up with another forum riot such as the one in June. I would also suggest seriously reconsidering the need for unpaid forum moderators, considering that a large portion of the EVE community (Which you claim to love so dearly) disagrees with this course of action.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.