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Why are T2 missiles so easy to skill into?
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TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#1 - 2012-09-27 17:37:49 UTC
[Inb4 "they're crap"]

To fit Torpedo Launcher IIs, you need:

-Torpedoes V
-MLO IV
-HMLs III
-LMLs III

To fit an equivalent size weapon, say, the Neutron Blaster Cannon II, you need:

-Large Hybrid Turret V
-Gunnery V
-Motion Prediction V
-Medium Blaster Specialization IV <--- Why no lower-tier specialisation for torpedoes? Seems unfair.
-Medium Hybrid Turret V
-Small Blaster Specialization IV
-Small Hybrid Turret V

Seems unfair to me. While a new character with a set of +3s (yes, basing this off an alt) will have to graft for around 70 days to get to the Neutron Blaster Cannon II from scratch, it takes just 25 days to be able to fit the TL II without any implants. This applies for all missiles - tech two MLs require a lot less specialisation and branching than tech two guns. Wouldn't it make more sense in terms of balance to have a tree going Rockets -> HAMs -> CMs? And on the other side, LMs -> HMs -> Torpedoes?

Besides, it might cut down on the number of botting tengu alts sold if it takes longer to train 'em. Think about it, CCP Blink

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Jim Era
#2 - 2012-09-27 17:39:21 UTC
so focused on other people

I don't understand! rewr

Wat™
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#3 - 2012-09-27 17:40:31 UTC
Jim Era wrote:
so focused on other people

I don't understand! rewr


To nick a leaf from your book: "wat"

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Kobal81
HR..
#4 - 2012-09-27 17:41:34 UTC
Deal with it! HTFU

"Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit"
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#5 - 2012-09-27 17:45:18 UTC
Kobal81 wrote:
Deal with it! HTFU


My U is already H'd. However, the question arose from recently having trained my alt into T2 torps and my main into T2 LHTs. Seemed like a weird imbalance.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#6 - 2012-09-27 17:50:07 UTC
Because missiles are not turrets.

You can get one range category quickly with missiles, but not both; with turrets, you get both for the price of one.
With turrets, you don't have to train for the ammo; with missiles, you do.
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#7 - 2012-09-27 17:53:38 UTC  |  Edited by: TheBreadMuncher
Tippia wrote:
Because missiles are not turrets.

You can get one range category quickly with missiles, but not both; with turrets, you get both for the price of one.
With turrets, you don't have to train for the ammo; with missiles, you do.


No-ooo, that's not entirely true. You have to branch for both blasters and railguns - two different sets of specialisations. Same for all other guns. The only difference between a torp and cruise launcher in terms of training is the preliminary skill (Torpedo Launchers, Cruise Missile Launchers) and the specialization (Torpedo Launcher Specialization, Cruise Missile Specialization). The skills for the Torpedo Launcher II will pretty much get you Rage Torpedoes and Javelin Torpedoes, apart from Missile Launcher Operation V.

Sorry for the focus on torpedoes, but the situation is the same for all missile sizes.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#8 - 2012-09-27 18:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
TheBreadMuncher wrote:
No-ooo, that's not entirely true. You have to branch for both blasters and railguns - two different sets of specialisations.
No, it's entirely accurate.
If you train Hybrid Weapons, you get blasters and rails; if you train HMLs you don't get HAMs. For turrets, you get both range categories, and specialisations are just branches on the same tree (not to mention that the support skills to specialise are shared for all turrets); for missiles, they're completely separate paths, and the specialisations are not shared — they just extend that one trunk they're on.

Quote:
The skills for the Torpedo Launcher II will get you Rage Torpedoes and Javelin Torpedoes.
No.

Torp Launcher II:
Missile Launcher Operation IV
Torpedo Specialization I
    Torpedoes V
        Heavy Missiles III
            Standard Missiles III

Javelin Torpedo:
Torpedo Specialization I
    Torpedoes V
        Heavy Missiles III
            Standard Missiles III
Torpedoes V
    […]
Missile Launcher Operation V

There are two crucial differences: one is that you have to have MLO at V to use the ammo; you don't need it for the launcher. The other is that you don't need Torp V to use launcher (just to train for it), but you do need it for the missiles. Should you ever lose Torp V (which is a reasonably high probability since it's a medium-rank skills with 1M SP poured into it — a good candidate for SP loss), you can keep using the launchers since it's not an actual prereq for using them — you only need the Torp Spec skill. However, losing Torp V means you are now barred from using the Javelins since it is a prereq for them.

So the launcher is easier to train for an immensely easier to retain if you ever lose SP. You have to spend additional time training for the ammo and need to protect it more than you do the luncher skills. This is the exact opposite situation than for turrets, where the turret itself requires far more training than the ammo, and being able to use the turret means you can always use the ammo as well.
Jim Era
#9 - 2012-09-27 18:08:24 UTC
lasers

Wat™
James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp RELOADED
CODE.
#10 - 2012-09-27 18:12:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
You can get one range category quickly with missiles, but not both; with turrets, you get both for the price of one.
With turrets, you don't have to train for the ammo; with missiles, you do.

I was going to say this. Also, there are different gun types (hybrid, projectile, laser) that have overlapping requirements, e.g. Gunnery V, Motion Prediction V.

MinerBumping.com
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#11 - 2012-09-27 18:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: TheBreadMuncher
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
The skills for the Torpedo Launcher II will get you Rage Torpedoes and Javelin Torpedoes.
No.


Please quote me correctly next time. What I actually said was:

TheBreadMuncher wrote:
The skills for the Torpedo Launcher II will pretty much get you Rage Torpedoes and Javelin Torpedoes, apart from Missile Launcher Operation V.


The edit came about ten seconds after the post, so don't try to pull me up on that.

Tippia wrote:
If you train Hybrid Weapons, you get blasters and rails; if you train HMLs you don't get HAMs. For turrets, you get both range categories, and specialisations are just branches on the same tree (not to mention that the support skills to specialise are shared for all turrets); for missiles, they're completely separate paths, and the specialisations are not shared — they just extend that one trunk they're on.


Sure. But this results in much reduced training time for somebody who might want to competently fit a battleship compared to gunnery. Why is this, in a game that has developers who claim to strive for balance?

Your skill tree is correct for missiles. But launchers do require Torpedoes V.

Quote:
There are two crucial differences: ... the launcher is easier to train for an immensely easier to retain if you ever lose SP.


Now there is one, and it's called "Missile Launcher Operation V". A standard support for any missile pilot, but its counterpart, Gunnery, is required for T2 Guns. Why not T2 launchers? Seems to me this system is flawed when you already require Torpedoes V.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#12 - 2012-09-27 18:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
TheBreadMuncher wrote:
Please quote me correctly next time.
I did. With or without the edit (which didn't show up when I quoted the post) I would just cut you off where you were starting to go off the rails anyway, because it was obvious that we had to go back to basics.

It works like this: to use any piece of equipment, you only need to have the skills listed as primary/secondary/tertiary/etc. at the correct levels. You do not need the skills that those primary-etc skills themselves have as their prereqs.

If I train Torp Spec I (which itself requires Torp V) and then lose that fifth level of Torps, then I can still use any equipment — say a T2 torp launcher — that only has Torp Spec I as its prereq. Hell, as long as I retain that one level in Torp Spec, I could theoretically have zero levels in the Torp skill (which, for various game-mechanical reasons can't happen) and still be able to use the launchers… because the torp skill itself is not a prereq — it's a prereq to one of the prereqs which is utterly irrelevant to the use of the launcher itself.

Quote:
Sure. But this results in much reduced training time for somebody who might want to competently fit a battleship compared to gunnery. Why is this, in a game that has developers who claim to strive for balance?
Because missiles are not turrets.

Quote:
Your skill tree is wrong.
Nope. All you need is MLO IV and Torp Spec I. You do not need Torp V to use the T2 launchers.

Or, to be very precise, the exact and full list of skills you need to use the launchers is:
· Missile Launcher Operation IV
· Torpedo Specialization I

The exact and full list of skills you need to use Javelins is:
· Torpedo Specialization I
· Torpedoes V
· Missile Launcher Operation V

No other skills are needed to use either piece of equipment. Please note the longer list of higher requirements and the higher “SP exposure” of the ammo compared to the launchers.

Quote:
Now there is one, and it's called "Missile Launcher Operation V".
…and Torps V, which still isn't a prereq for using the launchers.
Alara IonStorm
#13 - 2012-09-27 18:25:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
TheBreadMuncher wrote:

Why are T2 missiles so easy to skill into?

It takes longer to train every sub cap missile system up then it does to train a set T2 Guns.

What is more not only does it take longer but you 2 weapons skills up to V and SR and LR small and medium specialization skills to IV in the process. End result you get more for less time and the gunnery skills required help when training the next set of guns. Finally all those Missile tertiary skills you need to make them worth while only work for one set of weapons while Gunnery Skills work for 3.

Faster Specialization of a singular weapons Missile type is what you get in exchange for longer overall Missile training time.

That is a fair trade off.

TheBreadMuncher wrote:

Sure. But this results in much reduced training time for somebody who might want to competently fit a battleship compared to gunnery. Why is this, in a game that has developers who claim to strive for balance?

Balance doesn't mean making everything the same. Yes they can fly a Missile Battleship faster but they can also fly less of other ships. Trade offs for longer overall training time.
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#14 - 2012-09-27 18:27:16 UTC
Quote:
If I train Torp Spec I (which itself requires Torp V) and then lose that fifth level of Torps, then I can still use any equipment — say a T2 torp launcher — that only has Torp Spec I as its prereq. Hell, as long as I retain that one level in Torp Spec, I could theoretically have zero levels in the Torp skill (which, for various game-mechanical reasons can't happen) and still be able to use the launchers… because the torp skill itself is not a prereq — it's a prereq to one of the prereqs which is utterly irrelevant to the use of the launcher itself.


Why on earth is this relevant? You can't train Torp Spec I without Torps V, and so for the purpose of this thread (which is training times) you're spouting complete rubbish. We're not on about after you've trained Torps V and Torp Spec I, we're talking about the process of training them.

Quote:
Because missiles are not turrets.


Cheers, Sherlock. And yet I feel that you have no strong argument here other than "Change is bad".

Quote:
Nope. All you need is MLO IV and Torp Spec I. You do not need Torp V to use the T2 launchers

From your own list:

Torpedo Specialization 1
Missile Launcher Operation 1
Torpedoes 5

Do you, or do you not, need to train torpedoes V at some point to get Torpedo Specialization I? And this is a thread about training, not using.


Quote:
Now there is one, and it's called "Missile Launcher Operation V".
…and Torps V, which still isn't a prereq for using the launchers.[/quote]

Same point as above.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#15 - 2012-09-27 18:29:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
bah. missed a bunch of posts

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Cede Forster
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-09-27 18:30:39 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
TheBreadMuncher wrote:

Why are T2 missiles so easy to skill into?

It takes longer to train every sub cap missile system up then it does to train a set T2 Guns.

What is more not only does it take longer but you 2 weapons skills up to V and SR and LR small and medium specialization skills to IV in the process. End result you get more for less time and the gunnery skills required help when training the next set of guns. Finally all those Missile tertiary skills you need to make them worth while only work for one set of weapons while Gunnery Skills work for 3.

Faster Specialization of a singular weapons Missile type is what you get in exchange for longer overall Missile training time.

That is a fair trade off.

TheBreadMuncher wrote:

Sure. But this results in much reduced training time for somebody who might want to competently fit a battleship compared to gunnery. Why is this, in a game that has developers who claim to strive for balance?

Balance doesn't mean making everything the same. Yes they can fly a Missile Battleship faster but they can also fly less of other ships. Trade offs for longer overall training time.



thank you for getting to the point, Alara IonStorm
TheBreadMuncher, hope this is a troll, otherwise just sad - you had it wrong, get over it
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#17 - 2012-09-27 18:30:39 UTC
Quote:
Finally all those Missile tertiary skills you need to make them worth while only work for one set of weapons while Gunnery Skills work for 3.

The only tertiary skill for any missile is MLO V, and this is constant for all missile types.



Quote:
Faster Specialization of a singular weapons Missile type is what you get in exchange for longer overall Missile training time.

Granted this is true, but what balances this against the fact it takes 20d to fit T2 weapons suitable for a raven onto a raven vs 70d to fit T2 weapons suitable for a megathron onto a megathron?


Quote:
That is a fair trade off


Fair for who? Missile users?

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#18 - 2012-09-27 18:30:48 UTC
Because how many dedicated missile ships is there and how many races is there?

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#19 - 2012-09-27 18:32:04 UTC
Cede Forster wrote:
thank you for getting to the point, Alara IonStorm
TheBreadMuncher, hope this is a troll, otherwise just sad - you had it wrong, get over it


I'm also glad she got to the point, but it doesn't mean that I'm wrong. It's still an odd system to have different standardisations for what is essentially the same thing with a different pixel effect and different supports.

What, in your opinion, makes me wrong/sad/troll?

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#20 - 2012-09-27 18:32:37 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
Because how many dedicated missile ships is there and how many races is there?


1) Amarr dedicated missile T2 ships
2) Caldari dedicated missile ships (T1 and T2)

That's two races without looking. You'll find others.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
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